Thank you. to the march 12th meeting of the board of architectural review i appreciate everyone in attendance today i'm going to make a disclaimer this is the first time i've acted as board chairman so I might stumble but I shall recover the board was established by a zoning ordinance and by the zoning ordinance in 1958 our first historic district was Gratz Park we now have a total of 15 historic districts the board which is appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the urban county council is a part of the division of historic preservation the historic preservation office maintains a full staff to assist you with your projects the board encourages and recommends that applicants use them as a resource the historic preservation office is located at 101 East Vine Street in room 220 it's our procedure to consider applications in the order in which they're listed on our agenda in each case we will have a presentation by the staff and we'll hear any additional comments from the applicant the board will then ask questions or make comments regarding the application and then hear comments from any other interested parties the chair will then ask the board members to enter a motion if you wish to address the board please come to the microphone and state your name and address for the public record we'll also ask that you write your name on the sign-in sheet by the door so that the information can be recorded correctly I'd like to note the following staff approvals before we begin our review of applications there are certain items that the staff can approve eliminating the necessity for all applicants to appear before the board there are a total of six approved applications noted on today's agenda staff approvals include in the Ashland Park Central Historic District 281 South Ashland Avenue renovate structure in the Aylesford historic district 348 Aylesford place re-roof structure 530 East High Street repoint stone walls and foundation in the Belcourt historic district 621 Boonesboro replaced driveway and storage building 603 East Main Street renovate structure in the Mulberry Hill historic district 371 North limestone renovate rear addition we have three applications for certificates of appropriateness today. First one is in the Belcourt Historic District at 611 Russell Avenue. Change openings in rear addition. Hello. My name is Suzanne Irwin, and I am working as a consultant to Adrian Banks, who is the resident and owner of the property. And your address? My address is 132 East Belcourt. Thank you. And the address in question is 611 Russell Avenue. So the owners are renovating the second floor of what was, what was at one time a sleeping porch. It is now an existing bathroom, and they are simply renovating that space into a... updating that space into a more usable master bathroom. And as a result of that, there are some changes to the windows that are existing in the rear elevation and the side elevation at the second level. So have you reviewed the staff recommendations? Yes. And are you in agreement with the staff recommendations? Yes. Just for the record, the staff recommends approval with a condition that either the two-over-two window or the existing paired window be used and that final decision comes back to the staff. So you're okay with that? We are. So in that case, I could entertain a motion from the board and move forward if you're okay with that? Yes. Okay. Do I hear a motion? Go ahead, Jim. Mr. Chair, am I on? It doesn't sound like I'm on. Mr. Chair, with respect to case number 165-206-11-1, I move that we accept the recommendation of the staff to approve the application with the condition that either the 2 over 2 window or the existing pair window be used, and a final decision come back to the staff. Checking out about the mics, everything seems a little low. are your all's um a little red lights on your red lights on randy's saying we're on maybe just if you will lean into them a tad let's see if we can make this thing happy okay thank you a second all in favor is there any further discussion of the motion anyone from the audience want to speak to this here seeing no motion or hearing no response I'd ask for a vote so all in favor aye aye all opposed unanimous decision so move on to the next application next application is 408 West 6th street to reissue a certificate of appropriateness to demolish a garage and construct a new garage i'm trying to get to the Start recommendations. Yeah, recommendations. There you go. Thank you. Have you had a chance to go ahead? Yes. Jim Clark, 408 West 6th Street. And basically we're just asking to have the application renewed so that we could move forward with the plans. And the staff recommends approval with the condition that the area around the dry laid brick pads be grass in lieu of pebbles right and are you in agreement with that we are yes okay any other um any other comments on this case from the audience any comments from the board so uh can i have a motion mr chairman i move i present to case 17310408-a at 408 West 6th Street that we approve the certificate of appropriateness as per the staff recommendations that the area around the dry-laid brick pads be grass in lieu of pebbles. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Thank you. Thank you, Jim. and we're on to the third and final application for certificate of appropriateness at 230 arlington avenue create a parking area hello my name is kathy sudkamp i reside at 4009 palomar boulevard the property in questions at 230 arlington avenue it's a piece of rental property and do i keep going or do you guys ask me questions um let me see what the because i'm a talker so have you uh have you received the staff recommendation i have and are you in agreement with the staff recommendation? I am. I do have a question, however. I mean, it says we need to use either pavers, asphalt, or concrete to do that, which I don't have a problem with. We just have to rethink it a little bit. I can't tell you which one we're going to use today until we go back and investigate, you know, which one's going to be most cost-effective. Where you've asked us to reduce down kind of the turnaround area, I think she thought I was asking for five spaces, and I was asking for four. It states that we would get approval for three. I don't know if we could widen the one area that you allow us to about another five feet. We could probably still get the four cars in there and then do the little turnabout like you'd like us to do. We will make it very nice. I made a list of the improvements we've done in the last eight months since we've owned the property. We're not typical landlords. okay so the the first recommendation staff recommendation is that the area to be paved would be paved with either pavers permeable pavers asphalt or concrete and you're okay with that I am and you understand that you would need to let the staff know prior to execution what your decision is regard to the materials and then the second actually the third item is that the area to would be the area of the east leg or the the backmost portion of the paved area would be reduced from 25 by 20 to 10 by 12 and that essentially makes it a turnaround as opposed to a major parking area correct and you're okay with that i guess i am okay with that what i'm asking though was i guess we've got the other area do you have the copy of the diagram there as well yes okay um let me pull mine out where it says new gravel parking if we extended that another five to six feet we could probably get the four cars in that we wanted to get in there it still will not accommodate all the girls that are in that house right now but it would also allow us to get four cars in there without adding much and there would not be any views from the street as you look down the driveway of cars parked um and that was the only difference i wanted to see if we could you know possibly get that approved so that when those four cars were there they would line up one right next to the other with a little turnabout towards the back i guess i i guess i'd like to hear from the staff um on on this so that we can fully understand what we're looking at okay and uh and then have a discussion about that this is the property at 230 arlington avenue and this is the existing driveway and then the existing rear yard give you a whole view looking east and southeast this is from the back of the property looking forward. Go back for a second. The applicants at this time are asking to create an L-shaped configuration of a driveway with one leg being 20 by 30, and the other leg being 20 by 25. And, of course, reasons are explained in the application that's with you. And so the proposal calls for gravel, of course, we've already talked about that, in fact, that the zoning ordinance does not allow new gravel to go back in. Guidelines are included for your reference. Findings. The proposal to create a new parking area requires further consideration. The zoning ordinance states that any new parking areas are required to be paved. Refreshing of the gravel is only permitted when the existing gravel, but no new parking surfaces are allowed to be gravel. Per the guidelines, the paving can be asphalt, gravel, permeable pavers, or grass creates. Staff binds. The paved parking surface needs to be when the material is listed in lieu of gravel. In addition, the proposed area to be paved is excessive and visually intrusive. The staff finds that the proposed parking needs to be reduced to only three spaces. Staff suggests that the east leg of the L shape needs to be reduced to only 12 by 10 and act only as a background. Guidelines 3.7A and 3.7B state, respectively, landscape elements, site elements, should be not visually intrusive or suggest a false sense of history. and landscape elements elements and site elements open space should be only developed in scale use and character with the site and the historic district recommendations as you've alluded to before staff recommends approval with the conditions that number one the area be if they're paved or the pavers purple pavers asphalt or concrete two the final details of the paving be submitted to the staff or the board three the area to be reduced to have the east leg the one going to the rear no greater than 10 by 12 in lieu of 20 by 25 and for any changes come back to staff once reviewed by other lfuc divisions and of course afghan's here was that clear does anyone else on the board want to talk to this well i think i have a question of amelia with respect to the proposal that she's suggesting if I'm understanding it correctly you're basically eliminating that east leg and basically creating a large parking area if you will for four cars side by side. Is that essentially what's going to happen? Narrowing the east. Well essentially what we've suggested is the area of 20 by 30 remain you know can go in but the area towards the back and actually Randy if we can have that image please of the site plan, that that just be reduced to a background. Well, I guess what I'm asking you is, what do you think of a five-foot addition so that the cars can all line up and park next to each other? Well, I think that's actually up to the board. Yeah, but do you think it's doable as well within the guidelines? I have a suggestion. Okay. I understand the hesitation with regard to creating this large paved area, and I think that a way to mitigate this and to meet your needs would be to pave at least the turnaround area in a grass paver. I'm thinking the grass paver. Or, you know, that's what we're going to investigate first, because I think that's what would look most natural back there, which would allow for the greenery to stay. You're going to find that it's more expensive, just so you know that. But, I mean, I would suggest that perhaps we could approve a 36-foot wide parking area, which would allow you to have three nine-foot, four nine-foot. That's exactly what I was thinking. And then as long as everything behind that, at a minimum, would be done in the grass pavers, to me that would sort of minimize the appearance of it being a big parking lot, which is kind of where we're trying to get. Right. How does that? I guess I'm a little puzzled unless somebody has little bitty cars. you could get four cars in 36 feet, but you wouldn't be able to open your door the last person in because there's not enough room in between the cars, right? Four times eight would be 32. So that's one concern. I was thinking nine feet, 36. 36 feet, nine foot. Yeah, but your doors will have like a two-foot swing. It's kind of a minimum, right, nine feet for a parking? Yeah. Well, they're thin. That's my only concern is that. Yeah, I'm not an expert on the parking. I do know they're using my backyard with nothing, which I want to, you know, eliminate that because it's just going to tear it up, and I don't want to have a torn-up backyard either. otherwise I'm fine. Right. And then you'll just have a single turnaround space, not an extra. Right, just a single, yes. We had to do that in our own home when we got teenage boys to create that. But, you know, I do think it would work. But, you know, to eliminate, like, those girls park in there, the ones that park on each end can park close enough to the edge that when their doors swing open, they're going to swing open over a grass area. So they don't have to pack it in too tight. But most of these college kids are driving smaller cars. That is for sure. And presumably they're single passenger cars. I mean, they're not going to, or single driver cars. They're not having passengers. Right. So that both doors have to open. And right now I think part of their problem is, you know, the safety issue. There's such limited parking there that they're having to go too far away because a lot of them have to work. And they're very nervous about walking long distances to get back to the house. And this is a very deep backyard on Arlington, so I think it could accommodate it very nicely. And, you know, we'd make sure we don't want any eyesores either. We want it to look nice and be functional. Okay. Can staff ask just one question tied to how you're going to assure that they don't decide to add a fifth and a sixth car by just driving on onto the grass, which is what you're saying is happening now. Are you planning to make, I see on your sketch, you know, that you've got maybe shrubbery kind of things. Right. Are you planning to define that perimeter with something you can't drive over? Yes. We were anticipating that and looking at this. Yes. But I wanted to be sure that in this discussion that's part of what might be considered by the board for their motion. We even stipulate. So the wood timbers would project up high enough to prevent the car from. Well, I'm not even sure that we'd use the wood timbers right now since we're going to go to pavers. I mean, we still could, I guess. But, you know, we will get approval once we make that final decision on how that's all going to look, you know, get you all to approve that with the proper sizing and so forth. But we even put into our lease that that parking is for our residents only, that we don't expect anybody else to be given permission to park there. We're just experiencing, as I'm sure a lot of people are already familiar, that these youngsters are very, they drive very flamboyantly, and they manage to get over things that you intend to be a perimeter boundary. And so something more vertical in the way of a forsythia hedge or something like that might be a good companion, and or it doesn't have to replace those timbers, But the timbers alone, I think, are a little iffy, practically speaking. I don't think they're iffy in a design sense. And this board isn't enabled to really direct how you, you know, steer your property's use. But I think in a design sense that the shrubbery would help, if you're willing to consider shrubbery, that it would help buffer the visual impact. Right. And so on and so forth. So I just brought it up relative to the board's consideration so they might consider that as well. And you, of course. You, of course, is the property owner. Right. I don't want them parking on a space that's not designated for parking. Our goal was, even with, like you said, putting the shrubbery there was to help define the area. Are there any other comments from the board or from the audience? you have a member of the audience would like to come up and state your name and address name is david bottom i'm at 238 arlington avenue and i think they've overlooked one thing in this and i don't know whether you're familiar with the location of 238 it's not in the pictures they were showing but i had an apartment complex built to the south side of my house the west side and they paved an entire concrete parking lot there. And the city said that I wouldn't get any more water in my backyard. Well, my property is the low point of three or four properties back there. And everything that drains off of parking lots, my backyard has now become a retention basin during heavy rains. And I'm kind of concerned about more runoff in this property. Unfortunately, it's slightly uphill from my property. There's property in between. So that's kind of my concern that I'll be getting more runoff. And if you would like to see pictures of what happens when there's a heavy rain, I can show you pictures. Sure. We can, if you would like, put them on the overhead. These are from several years ago, and one of these is shortly after the apartment. That's in the Tine Creek parking lot up there. He'll put them up for you, and then if you will explain as they're up what you're depicting, that would be helpful. Thank you. I'm just concerned that when you're more impervious ground and there's going to be runoff during more rains. It doesn't show up real well in that picture, but the upper right-hand corner is the concrete parking lot, which slopes to the back. And there is no drainage from back there. Once it floods back there, it'll get up to 18 inches deep, and it takes several days for it to go straight down. So that's my concern. And it has flooded my garage back there once in the past, too. So it was over two feet deep in the backyard. So that's... I'm just wondering if you talked to the owner of the apartment complex about solving that. Oh, there was a great discussion about that. And the city engineering person and the only drainage they had, they dug a small hole and put rock in it back there for drainage. But before they even finished a concrete truck, cleaned out a cement truck into that pit with gravel in it. So it does nothing. So, you know, it just adds, if it was ground, at least the water would have a chance to soak into the ground. How much rain did you have that day? Or do you remember? Pardon? How much rain did you have that day? That day was probably an excessive amount, probably three to four inches. But usually after a two-inch rain or something, the whole backyard behind my garage will be flooded back there. And it does extend into both properties on either side of me at that point, too. So it would be worthwhile just looking or having the engineering come out there and look at that, too, again. Like I say, I never got much satisfaction when they were designing the apartment complex there because it was a done deal, evidently. Well, you may have to get his attention by perhaps talking to a lawyer and talking to him. Well, we tried that, too. Okay. All right. So at the time, it was already done, so. It shouldn't matter. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Boggs. Do the guidelines, Amelia, I guess, let me ask you a question. Do the guidelines allow us to specify that they have to use a particular type of permeable material, or is it such that it's their choice? I mean, can we strongly encourage the use of pavers, grass pavers, as opposed to asphalt? Certainly, as a board member, you can do so. The guidelines don't necessarily, they specify that there are, you know, the different types of paving as far as asphalt, concrete, permeable pavers, pavers, permeable concrete, and so forth. Okay. But I'd say that the guidelines relative to the intent of preserving green space, you know, the philosophy is to first and foremost in achieving paving do so in the least problematic way in urging the retention of green space and or the softening of the presence of paving. So I think it does steer the intent of the guidelines toward finding the least interruptive way to accommodate real-world needs of automobiles. With that said, it doesn't direct. It must be one way or the other. But it is meant for you all as a board to be able to weigh these on a case-by-case matter basis and make that decision such as you're considering. This gentleman's property is to the left of yours or the right? To the right. To the right. Okay, good. Is it Jason or is it no? There's a property between. Uh-huh. I'm not familiar with that type of drainage problem. I'm not familiar with any drainage that we've had excessive water on that property at all. We've only owned the property since July of 2013. but i mean drainage would be an issue for us too if we wanted to you know we'd make sure that we routed drainage in a certain pattern too so we don't have to get freeze and everything we've put up with this past winter so i can't imagine it being a i don't know i'm sure he had a problem it sounds like runoff is a pretty significant issue and i'm wondering if you would be amenable to paving the entire area with a permeable paver, whether it be a paving stone or a grass paver? Well, just sitting here thinking about it, I'm thinking one of the things we can do is start out small and design it so we can add on as we afford to do it. We have to investigate the cost of putting in the pavers and so forth. So that was one option. But, I mean, I think we would definitely take a look at it. Like, we hope to keep the property, and I think it's an issue we're going to have to deal with if we want to put girls in there. I don't think guys really care. Maybe I should rent to guys. What is your existing driveway? It's gravel. Gravel. And they can, I mean, they could park four cars lined straight up, but then somebody's got to move. Yeah. So the paving that you intend to do now is just in the new parking area? Yes. Okay. I'm going to introduce yourself. And you're going to stop the gravel where? Right now at the end of the house. I mean, that was the other issue. If we were going to be able to concrete, I was going to say, you know, initially we came in here thinking we were going to gravel. but since we're not, maybe put a new layer of gravel on top of the existing driveway. I think I'd listen to your thoughts about what do we do with the existing driveway. Do we just leave it gravel the way it is, or do we need to do something different to it? Because it seems well-packed down and well-established driveway. Right, right. So, I mean, I don't know that it would be necessary to pull that all out and do a paver there. I think what's there is sufficient, maybe a thin layer to refresh it a little bit, but no more than that. Well, correct me if I'm wrong. I think the guidelines say with an existing one, you can refresh it. Is that right? Okay. Yeah, and it wouldn't take a lot. If it were not gravel now, it would not be possible. Right. It is gravel. They would, process-wise, have the right and opportunity to continue to keep that freshened. They do need a permit to do that. We do those at staff. Well, no, we come to the board. That's right. We come to the board for freshening of gravel because that's evolved recently, but because there have been problems where people have been freshening their gravel and suddenly they have a much larger parking area. Imagine that. So that's why it goes to the board. And usually, just quickly, and we can talk about it with you more, not taking everybody's time, about the details, but just be aware that if you are proposing to freshen it and it were approvable, the process will ask that you frame it in to contain it. And that's the wash problem is something you already know about, I suspect. So Amelia was reminding me that this property in, did you say, three or four? 2003, had an application under whoever was owning it at that time, had an application approved to concrete the driveway with the grass median in the middle that would, again, help with the water situation. But they never, and it was at their choice, and they never elected to carry out that work. But that was reviewed by the then-seeded BOAR members of that time. okay any other comments from and any any any here from the board anyone care to make a motion uh mr chair with respect to can you hear me now case number 171 7 0 5 6 3 dash B 2 30 Arlington Avenue. I move that we approve the application as approved by the staff with the following recommendations that the area be paved. Let me see with the following changes actually that we will reduce the East leg from to 10 feet by 12 feet with additional six foot to the west to the West Lake for a total of 36 feet which will allow for parking for four vehicles the services to be parked to be paved with a permanent paper edged with shrubberies to prevent vehicles from driving into the turf area and that you maintain that parking area in such a way that the visitors cannot park in the backyard basically and that the final details of the paving be submitted to the staff and our board a second all right all in favor aye aye thank you motion passes thank you so we're done with the uh applications for certificates of appropriateness the next item on the agenda is a so that that completes the formal um portion of our board meeting and and the next item on our agenda is a conceptual review for 520 sarah avenue Thank you.