# Board of Adjustment Meeting - December 12, 2014 > Auto-transcribed civic record · December 12, 2014 - **Permalink**: https://meetings.lexingtonky.news/meeting/3538 - **Source video**: https://lfucg.granicus.com/player/clip/3538?view_id=14&redirect=true - **Date**: 2014-12-12 - **Last revised**: July 15, 2026 - **Length**: 23,156 words > ⚠️ **Auto-generated content.** Audio from the official Granicus video was auto-transcribed with OpenAI's open-source Whisper large-v3-turbo model, run locally by The Lexington Times. Structured facts were extracted with GPT-4o; the narrative summary was written by Anthropic Claude. Verbatim wording may contain errors. See [methodology](https://meetings.lexingtonky.news/about/methodology) or [report a correction](mailto:editor@lexingtonky.news). --- ## Meeting Overview The Urban County Board of Adjustment Planning Services Section met on December 12, 2014, at 1:30 p.m. at 200 East Main Street in Lexington, Kentucky. Barry Stumbo presided over the meeting, which addressed five agenda items involving various conditional use appeals and variance requests. The board took four votes during the session and heard four public comments from attendees. Of the five matters presented, two conditional use appeals were approved: one for Blue Grass Christian Camp to extend zip line and ropes course facilities from Clark County to Fayette County in an A-R zone, and another for Assia Tounova-Stoenchev to establish a family child care facility for up to 12 children in an R-3 zone. Two items were withdrawn from consideration: an appeal for a variance to reduce the side yard from 3 feet to 0 feet at 766 Maple Avenue, and a conditional use appeal for Club Facilities dba The Signature Club. One matter—a conditional use appeal for Remnant Community Church to establish a church in a B-4 zone—was postponed for further consideration at a future meeting. ## Attendance The following individuals were present at the meeting on December 12, 2014: * Barry Stumbo * Kathryn Moore * James Griggs * Janice Meyer * Joan Whitman * Larry Forester * Thomas Glover * Casey Kaucher * Chuck Saylor * Jim Marx * Tracy Jones * Bill Sallee * Jimmy Emmons * Tammye McMullen No absences or late arrivals were recorded. ## Votes and Decisions **Approval of Minutes from November 21, 2014** [timestamp: 00:02:10] A motion by Joan Whitman, seconded by Janice Meyer, to approve the minutes from November 21, 2014 passed unanimously. **Postponement of C-2014-75: Remnant Community Church Conditional Use Appeal** [timestamp: 00:05:01] A motion by James Griggs, seconded by Joan Whitman, to postpone case C-2014-75 (Remnant Community Church conditional use appeal) until January 30, 2015 passed unanimously. **C-2014-72: Blue Grass Christian Camp Conditional Use Permit** [timestamp: 00:41:19] A motion by Larry Forester, seconded by Joan Whitman, to approve the conditional use permit for Blue Grass Christian Camp to extend zip line and ropes course facilities from Clark County to Fayette County in an A-R zone passed by roll call vote, 5-2. Voting in favor: Barry Stumbo, Kathryn Moore, Janice Meyer, Joan Whitman, and Thomas Glover Voting against: James Griggs and Janice Meyer The approval includes four conditions: development must follow the approved site plan; all applicable permits including Zoning Compliance Permit and Certificate of Occupancy must be obtained before construction; the applicant must provide documentation of inspection and staff training to the Zoning Enforcement section; and the recreational facilities shall be for sponsored church camp activities only and not offered to the general public. **C-2014-74: Assia Tounova-Stoenchev Family Child Care Conditional Use Permit** [timestamp: 00:47:32] A motion by Kathryn Moore, seconded by Thomas Glover, to approve the conditional use permit for family child care for up to 12 children in an R-3 zone passed by roll call vote, 5-2. Voting in favor: Barry Stumbo, Kathryn Moore, James Griggs, Joan Whitman, and Thomas Glover Voting against: Janice Meyer and Larry Forester The approval includes five conditions: care limited to weekdays between 7:00 AM and 4:30 PM; required permits must be obtained before expanding the use; a fenced outdoor play area of at least 600 square feet must be provided; the driveway must be reserved for parent use during operating hours; and the conditional use becomes void if the applicant no longer resides at the location. ## Public Comment Four speakers addressed the meeting during the public comment period. **Jeff Helener** [timestamp: 02:22:24] spoke in support of the applicant and criticized the homeowners association's approach. He expressed frustration that the HOA spent money on legal representation rather than engaging the community in dialogue. Helener emphasized the importance of fairness and safety, and highlighted the positive impact the daycare has had on families. **Susie Nally** [timestamp: 02:29:53], a non-resident grandparent, praised the quality of care provided by the applicant. She described the environment as structured, educational, and nurturing, emphasizing the exceptional standard of care. Nally noted the strong emotional bond between the children and the caregiver. **Connie Salin** [timestamp: 02:36:35], a neighbor living on the same street, provided observations based on daily experience with the applicant's operations. She reported never observing more than three cars at the residence at any time and affirmed that the applicant maintains a clean, orderly, and low-impact household. **Gustavo Cavalcanti** [timestamp: 02:41:01] offered a rebuttal to opposition arguments. He contended that concerns raised by opponents regarding traffic and precedent were unfounded. Cavalcanti argued that in-home daycares are fundamentally different from commercial operations and do not negatively impact property values. ## Contested Items **C-2014-74: Family Child Care Permit Appeal** This application faced significant community opposition despite having strong support from other residents. The homeowners association and several neighbors objected to the permit, raising concerns about traffic impacts, safety issues, and potential disruption to the neighborhood's residential character. The disagreement centered on whether the benefits of the family child care service outweighed the concerns about its effects on the surrounding community. **C-2014-72: Blue Grass Christian Camp Zip Line Extension** The board engaged in a detailed and heated discussion regarding this project proposal. The debate focused on three main areas of contention: whether the project would set a problematic precedent given previous denials of similar zip line applications, the appropriate scale for such a facility, and whether the proposed use would constitute an amusement use that is prohibited in A-R (Agricultural-Residential) zones. Board members examined the consistency of their decision-making relative to prior cases and the zoning regulations governing the property. ## Appeal for variance to reduce side yard from 3 feet to 0 feet at 766 Maple Avenue **Case Number:** V-2014-76 **Outcome:** Withdrawn The application for a variance to reduce the side yard setback from 3 feet to 0 feet at 766 Maple Avenue was withdrawn by the applicant prior to the meeting. [timestamp: 00:03:17] According to the record, the applicant withdrew the application on December 5, 2014, after it was determined that a variance was not needed for the proposed work. A Zoning Compliance Permit had already been issued for the project, making the variance request unnecessary. **Key Speaker:** Jimmy Emmons ## Conditional use appeal for Blue Grass Christian Camp to extend zip line/ropes from Clark County to Fayette County in A-R zone [timestamp: 00:05:31] The board considered a conditional use appeal (C-2014-72) for Blue Grass Christian Camp to extend a zip line and ropes course from Clark County into Fayette County within an A-R (Agricultural-Residential) zone. **Key speakers** included Michael Fann, James Griggs, Barry Stumbo, and Jimmy Emmons. **Discussion and concerns** The board raised several concerns during deliberation, including questions about safety standards for the zip line and ropes course facilities. Issues regarding the scale of the proposed extension and potential precedent for similar uses in the A-R zone were also discussed. **Conditions of approval** The board approved the conditional use appeal with four specific conditions: - Compliance with approved site plans - Compliance with all required permits - Annual inspections of the facilities - Restriction of use to sponsored church camp activities only **Outcome** The appeal was approved with these conditions in place. ## Conditional use appeal for Club Facilities dba The Signature Club **Case Identifier:** C-2014-73 The conditional use appeal for Club Facilities dba The Signature Club was not discussed during this meeting. The application was withdrawn by the applicant on November 25, 2014, prior to legal advertisement, and therefore was not included on the agenda. ## Conditional use appeal for Assia Tounova-Stoenchev to establish family child care [timestamp: 00:52:13] The board considered a conditional use appeal by Assia Tounova-Stoenchev to establish a family child care facility for up to 12 children in an R-3 zone. **Applicant's presentation** Assia Tounova-Stoenchev presented her application, emphasizing her extensive experience in child care and demonstrating community support for the proposed facility. **Board discussion** The board members John Billings, Mark Stringer, Bill Johnson, and Jimmy Emmons participated in the discussion of the application. **Outcome** The board approved the conditional use appeal. The approval included five conditions: * Restricted operating hours * Permit requirements * Fencing specifications * Driveway use restrictions * Residency requirement for the applicant ## Conditional use appeal for Remnant Community Church to establish a church in B-4 **Identifier:** C-2014-75 The board considered a conditional use appeal for Remnant Community Church to establish a church in the B-4 zone [timestamp: 00:04:25]. Key speakers on this matter included Josh Brown, James Griggs, and Jimmy Emmons. **Outcome** The board postponed the appeal until January 30, 2015. The applicant requested the postponement. **Concerns Raised** Several unresolved issues prevented the board from moving forward with a decision: - Parking - Sanctuary capacity - Traffic design - Landscaping --- ## Decisions - **Motion** — passed (0-0): Approval of minutes from November 21, 2014 - **Motion** — passed (0-0): Postponement of C-2014-75: Remnant Community Church conditional use appeal until January 30, 2015 - **Motion** — passed (5-2): Approval of C-2014-72: Blue Grass Christian Camp conditional use permit to extend zip line/ropes from Clark County to Fayette County in A-R zone - **Motion** — passed (5-2): Approval of C-2014-74: Assia Tounova-Stoenchev family child care conditional use permit for up to 12 children in R-3 zone --- ## Full transcript I wonder anything for love, anything you've been dreaming of, but I just want to do that. I'll never stop dreaming of you every night of my life. No way. And I would do anything for love. Oh, I would do anything for love. Oh, I would do anything for love. But I won't do that. No, I won't do that. Will you raise me up? Will you help me down? Will you get me right out of this god-versaking town? Will you make it all a little less cold? I can do that. Oh, I can do that. Will you hold me safe? Will you hold me tight? Can you colorize my life? I'm so sick of black and white. Can you make it... Very good. I'd just like to ask everyone if you agree to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. I do. Thank you. You can be seated. Before I read the agenda, I do know that we have the November 21st Board of Adjustment Minutes that was in our packet. if everyone has had an opportunity to look those over. And I'll ask the board if there's any additions, deletions, edits. If not, the chair will entertain a motion. So moved to approve the minutes of the November 21st. Thank you, Ms. Whitman. Is there a second? Second. Thank you, Ms. Meyer. All in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Any opposed? Thank you. Before I read the agenda, I'd like to ask Mr. Eminem and his staff if there are any withdrawals. Yes, sir. Or postponements. Yes, sir. Is this on? Jimmy, we can't hear you. Jimmy, I just want to work on it. Turn this one up. Can you hear me now? Yes. Yes. on your agenda there were two withdrawals on out of the five cases the first of those withdrawals is on page one it's item v 2014-76 it was a variance request for a side yard at property at 766 maple avenue by singa that that has been withdrawn it was determined that he did not need the variance and a zoning compliance permit has been issued the second item is on the last page of your agenda page three under staff items the case C 2014 dash 73 Club facilities also doing business as the signature club for a property that's located off of Lansdowne Drive and Raven Road Raven Road the that That property was withdrawn by the applicant prior to the legal ad, so it was removed from the agenda. I do believe that there is also, there might be other postponements or withdrawals from the audience. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Emmons. I, as I often, as I always do, I like to read the agenda, ask if the folks are present here, and if there is any opposition to any of the cases, we'd like for you all to step out in hallway and try to work those differences out before the case comes up mr chairman yes sir uh before you do that we do believe there is at least one other item that wishes to postpone this afternoon very good is that is that applicant here would you go ahead please step up state your name for the record please josh brown representative of remnant community church kc two uh 2014-75 yes which is to postpone for how long until the next meeting postpone until the january meeting that would be january 30th 2015. does the board have any questions for mr brown staff in agreement board in agreement mr griggs is there any opposition that you is there any opposition to remnant community church will uh the chair will entertain a motion to postpone for 30 days into the January meeting? So moved. Thank you, Mr. Griggs. Is there a second? Second. Thank you, Ms. Whitman. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Any opposed? We postpone until January. Thank you. The first item on the agenda is Bluegrass Christian Camp. Is the applicant here? Is there any opposition? Is there any opposition to the Bluegrass Christian camp no opposition okay the next item we have on the on the agenda and forgive me if i if i miss if i do not enunciate this correctly but but a seah stone chef is that correct the applicant is here very good is there anyone in opposition uh to this yes sure there is the homeowner's association Okay, very good. Again, we ask that if you all have any differences, we ask that you step out in the lobby and try to resolve those if you feel that you can. And if not, we'll proceed. It looks like, Mr. Immons, those are the only two items on the agenda with the other withdrawals and the postponements. So the first case that we will hear will be Bluegrass Christian Camp. Would the applicant please step forward and state their name for the record? Mr. Chairman, as he's stepping forward, the staff has received one letter of support. I have copies. I'll pass that out now. Very good. Give us just a second. Go ahead and state your name for the record. My name is Michael Phan. I'm the director at Bluegrass Christian Camp. Okay, Mr. Phan. Hold on just a second, and we'll be right with you. Thank you. Mr. Fanning, FAN, F-A-N-N. Mr. Fan, I'd like to mention that the staff has actually recommended approval for a conditional use permit to extend the extending zip lines and ropes from Clark County to Fayette County and an AR zone at 7463 Athens Bloomsboro Road, subject to four conditions. Do you agree to abide by those conditions? Yes, we do. I'd like to ask the board if they have any questions for Mr. Fan. I'd just like an explanation of what you plan to do and why you want to expand across the creek. Yes, we have been operating as a camp since 1949. And in 1999, before I was involved in the camp, they added what's called a high adventure course. We do team training, leadership training, mainly with children, but also with high school and a few adult groups. And it's been very successful. But there's just a need to add a few more, and all of the rest of our equipment is on the Clark County side. The most natural place to put it happens to be on the Fayette County side, and that's why you're first hearing of it. Is there any way to expand it on the Clark County side without coming into Fayette County? Not in what we would like to do with it, no. Is there anybody else that has any questions for Mr. Fan? I have a few. Mr. Greggs? Mr. Fan, do you live at the camp? Yes, sir, I do. Are there other people that live at the camp year-round? Yes, we have three staff people that live there year-round. Do any of them live on the Fayette County side? Yes, two of the families do. And do you live on the Fayette County side? I do. In one of those dormitory buildings? No, I live in a house. Which one? There's all those dormitories that are embedded into the hillside along Athens Boonsboro Road? We live in a house right next to the first of those dorms. When you come into our property, if you're looking at the map, there are two small buildings just to your left. One is an office building and one is a residence, and we live in that residence. I know which one you mean. Thank you. Is the Bluegrass Christian Camp a church? Is it a church? No, sir. It's a nonprofit organization. And who owns it? A few of my board representatives are here. And they're all representatives or members of the Christian Church Independent, and they have a board that operates it as a 501c3. So it's a nonprofit Kentucky corporation directed or run by directors? Yes, sir. A board of directors? can you describe what goes on at the bluegrass christian camp during an ordinary year the number of special events the number of participants the hours of operation sort of season by season well the busiest part of our year is obviously summer that's primarily what we are as a summer camp. We run for about eight weeks in the summer and we'll have anywhere from 100 to 200 people in attendance. Sometimes it's children, sometimes it's special needs adults, teenagers, and that's the majority of our work in the summer. In the school year we have school groups that come out from Fayette County schools and other schools who will do team building or different types of retreats. We also host weekend retreats, most weekends in the spring and fall and a few in the winter, either our Fayette County portion dorms or at the Clark County Retreat Center. So that's kind of what is that of what you were looking for? Yeah, that's going down the right road. There's been quite a bit of expansion in Clark County. You have a large recreational building there? Yes, we do have a large, two large buildings there. Those were constructed in the late 1990s. And the one has a basketball court? Yes, there it does. With eagles on it. Is there a church that's got a team named Eagles? No, LCA here in town was refinishing their wooden basketball court and they gave us their old one. We were happy to take it. Oh, so that's South Eastwood. Nice. Do you have a drawing of the zip line structure and the platform and any rope course that's going to be on the Fayette County side? We have a map that we submitted. I don't want to interrupt Mr. Craig while he's asking questions, but I'm visually oriented and didn't get to go look at this property myself this week. And I wonder if we could put that map up on the overhead and focus in on the area that we're talking about. That would help me and might help the rest of the board. I couldn't really tell because the scale is so small or large, whichever. I couldn't distinguish enough from the submitted drawing. Thank you. Also on the Clark County side, when I was over there and found you to introduce myself and let you know that I was going to walk the site, you identified the recreation facility where your rope course was and you pointed out another building and said it was a motel. Is that, can you tell me about the motel? Motel is probably not the best word for what that is. What it is, it's a 13-room, we call it a retreat center. The best way to describe it is just 13 rooms, each with two beds, a bathroom, and we use it for retreats, mainly adult retreats when we do that. I looked in a few of the windows. each room has two bunk beds, so it sleeps four, and the other rooms have two queens, right? So you're sleeping. Two full beds, yes. At most, each one sleeps four apiece. Yeah. Okay. So there's a lot of emphasis on growth here. You guys are putting up some buildings and hoping to grow. This zip line is a way to attract more people because it's the hot thing. Zip lines are a real draw these days. You could say that, but those two buildings you mentioned were built in the 1990s, so that's not recent expansion. And we've had a zip line on the property since 1999. Will the zip line that's on the property now connect to the one that you're proposing? No, the one that we have right now, it's part of a high adventure course in that you have to get on a belay system to climb up a telephone pole and then get onto a zip line. The advantage in having it in Fayette County is that you would not need to climb up a telephone pole and be harnessed in. You'd be able just to walk onto a small platform and then attach to the zip line, allowing more people to be able to do it. Not that it would be more people because we already fill all of our dorms. And so, I mean, we're just trying to expand what we offer to the people who already come. Regarding safety, will the zip lines be constructed under some standard defined by state statute? Will the inspectors be certified by the state? How do you keep it safe? Yes, we already inspect our course. It's done by an outside inspector annually. I have a copy of the most recent inspection if you'd like to see it, but it's done by ACCT standards. Those are the most strictest standards in the nation. They're more strict than the national standards for zip lines and rope course. And so it's annually inspected for safety in terms of that, and this will be a part of our course, and so they will expect that as well. In addition to inspecting the physical course, they'll inspect all of our harnesses, our helmets, and things like that. And we also have our entire staff that will be running our current course, and also in addition to those courses are annually given training and certified to be able to work on the course. Thank you, Mike. I don't know if anyone else has questions for you, but I've got some for the staff when we're done. Just to reiterate, this is a one-season camp, essentially, summer? The primary season is the summer. We do host retreat groups on the weekends during the school year, and we also have a small number right now of school groups that come out during the school day as well. So you have spring and fall also? Yes, ma'am. That reminds me, there's a special event I think you all hold in the summer or in the fall that you put teaser signs along Athens-Boonsboro Road. You're almost there. Yes. And I've been on Athens-Boonsboro Road when that occurs. It's a huge, huge event. Sometimes the traffic backs up across the creek. So what's that about? That's just our summer camp, and I'm sorry if it's ever backed up. It's a standard camp that we host. is called 7-Eleven, and it's one of our summer camps. And so there are people that are pulling into the Clark County side, and then I know that on occasion there'll be a small backup, but once we get them in, they park and then they leave. That's the difference in our camp. We have a lot of children, and so there's a lot of people being dropped off, but not many people staying in cars. And so it's a drop-off, and then the families will leave. So is this a special week, like July 11th? No, the reason is called 7-11. It's open for kids ages 7 through 11 years old. So I think it's a pretty good name personally. Thank you. Mr. Fain, I just have a comment more than anything because we've had zip line issues, as some of you may recall before this board for the last couple of years. And I think it's an entirely different case. That was going to be a principal use. And to me, you know, as I've read the staff report and so forth in your application, you know, this is actually, you know, incidental and an accessory to what you're already doing with the Christian camp. You're not going to be out there advertising, you know, zip lines to the public for, you know, for their consumption or for their use. This is part of an accessory of what you're already doing out there. Is that correct? That is very correct. In fact, we intended on building it three years ago, but with all that you were dealing with, we thought it was best not to submit our application at that time. But we've had the materials on property for three years now, waiting for approval to be able to do this. Thank you, Mr. Fan. Does anybody else on the Board of Adjustment have a question for Mr. Fan? I do. I have, and I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to have the staff point out features or the director, but since the map is up there, like I said, I didn't get a chance to get out there in person to take a look myself. Could somebody identify on the map where the county line is, for one thing? The county line is actually the creek. And where is the creek? Thank you. That's what I thought it was. and Athens Boonesboro Road is on the left side of the map. Okay. And which side is the property we're looking at on? Is it the Fayette County side we're looking at? The map that you're seeing is the Fayette County side. We also own property on the Clark County side. Okay. And the portion that's marked in yellow is the proposed new zip line that we're talking about? Okay. All right. I think that helps. Thanks. any other questions for mr fan mr griggs did you have a question or two for the staff i do i do um jimmy let's start at the beginning this land is zoned ar the principal permitted uses are ag related and residential the staff report says the primary use is a church sponsored youth camp And the recreational uses are accessories. So is this camp operating currently under a conditional use, or is it a legal nonconforming use? And if it's a legal nonconforming use, can it be expanded? That is a very good question. The first of all I could not find in any of my research that this camp had ever been before the board. It appears with the long history of this camp originally starting in 1949 all of the all of the structures that are there the use of the property was there prior to this use a campground being a youth camp being a conditional use. in the AR zone this is this appears to be the first time that they have actually asked for an expansion on the Fayette County portion of the property since it became a conditional use now the second question the second half of your question is is it a non-conforming illegal non-conforming use conditional uses that are are allowed are not considered non-conforming uses because as a conditional use so it the the zoning ordinance speaks very clearly to this situation where you had a use that was legally allowed and then it becomes in the zoning ordinance a conditional use there's a section in article 4 that says that states that that is not a non-conforming use. That means that they can come before the Board of Adjustment and ask for the conditional use at a later date should they wish to expand. So that's what they're doing now. I see what you're saying. Yeah, it's a difference between a non-conforming building where a variance would be needed maybe to expand it. Yes. That is correct. Thank you. the zip line need a variance because of its proximity to the front and side yard requirements once again a very good question whenever the staff looked at we did not address that in the staff report and as we looked at that question this week the we determined that this that the platform is a structure by our definition of the zoning ordinance but it is not a building and does not have to comply with either the front yard or the side yard setbacks as a as a structure according to the zoning ordinance definition of a structure it is subject to the height requirements of the AR zone the AR zone has a 35 foot height requirement and mr. fan presented today that the platform would be about three feet off the ground because they're choosing to build it on the high portion of their property well while we're speaking about the height requirements wouldn't it the height of the pole structure the the measurement that would be of interest we would measure it from the constructed structure from the ground up to the top of the pole but I do not believe that the pole that's holding the wire will be above 35 feet if if you're only going to get up on a three-foot platform to connect to the wire the director might be able to answer more about that. So the Fayette County side zip line terminal is a short pole structure with a platform about three feet off the ground. Based on the testimony today, yes. Yes, sir. And it doesn't need to meet the front yard requirements. And I guess what's confusing me is we have cases that come before us where people want to put a fence in their front yard and that's not a structure but they can't put it in the front yard actually a fence is a structure under the zoning ordinance but there are different regulations for fences than there are for buildings and that's kind of where the staff is on this one you can build a retaining wall or a decorative wall or a fence in front yard in almost any zone but they have a different set of regulations and requirements meaning it let's say a residential property because there's a platted building line on the property or zoning ordinance requirement of a 30 foot setback doesn't mean that there can be no structures in front of that line it just means that there are different requirements for that in looking at the AR zone the only one that we saw applicable was the height of the structure not necessarily the location of this type of a structure should the camp want an additional building on their Fayette County property in the future that would be an issue as to whether a 50 or a 300 foot setback would be required but for this actual structure we did not determine that it needed to meet either a 50 or a 300 foot setback from the roadway. And we're all comfortable with the fact that the cable that's coming off of this structure will be far above 35 feet as it travels across Fayette County and it will be above 35 feet in the side yard where it goes into Clark County. We're not looking at the cable height. That's right. If this platform, tell me about the square footage requirements, minimum, or sorry, maximums for buildings on a 10-acre site. Is there a 10,000 square foot limit or a 10,000 plus 10,000 more? what are the rules on that? Generally how the board has interpreted this provision of the ordinance for many conditional uses in the AR zone including campgrounds there is a limitation of 10,000 square feet for all structures associated with those uses. This is a provision that came into the ordinance in the mid-1990s and how the board has consistently interpreted this section is any use that was in existence as of that time is allowed up to an additional 10,000 square feet of building floor area for their use as a conditional use. So does that put a $20,000 upper limit on it, or can they have the $40,000 they've got now and still build another $10,000? How consistently the board has interpreted this would be whatever square footage they had as of the mid-1990s, they would be permitted to at least request up to an additional 10,000 square feet over that amount. Okay, so this minuscule platform probably should be ignored. I'm not sure it should be ignored, but clearly it wouldn't approach a 10,000 square foot ceiling that this use presumably would have. I was questioning them about the intensity of the use in describing some of the facilities they've added on the Clark County side. And, of course, the Fayette County side is filled. Usually in residential and rural areas, we add conditions to soften intense uses by limiting hours of operation, number of events, number of participants, et cetera. And I'm wondering if adding this zip line, which is a way to, it's like advertising for more people because they've got a fun ride, if we ought to, before we're finished here, think about limiting their future growth. Also, regarding safety, your condition number three is pretty loose. I was wondering if we should set a standard that's defined by state statutes that inspectors be certified by the state or some nationally recognized body. Should we require evidence of liability insurance in case someone gets hurt on the Fayette County side? Mr. Marks may wish to address that last question. His staff are the ones that will need to inspect that annually. I think the intent of the third condition was more along the lines with the director's comments of having ACCT inspections on an annual basis and that those inspections be available for review by the zoning enforcement staff. Certainly the board has the ability to change that and certainly to impose limits on the hours of operation. I don't think the staff envisioned this part of the camp being used other than during daylight hours. And to be honest, I don't think we have a good sense of what their typical hours are at the camp, especially in the summertime. But the hours limitation is an item the board can't impose. You mentioned the fire station in your staff report, and that would respond if there's an accident over there. But if there's an accident on the Clark County side off of this zip line, it's going to be hard to determine whose fault it is. But there may not be a way to get a Clark County ambulance over there in RE. Just something to think about. What we've heard in other cases over the last couple of years is along the county boundaries, especially if cell phones are used, those calls are routed to different agencies kind of irrespective of where the county boundaries are we presume that the two counties do communicate depending on locations but yes on the clark county side we would we would assume that the clark county responders would be needed to be contacted while we're talking about conditions that we might put on this application. If the property is sold, I think this conditional use should end, and it might seem unlikely because they've existed for such a long time, but the Board of Directors does have the authority to sell the assets and to another entity that might expand this use beyond our, what we might expect. Ms. Jones may wish to weigh in, but I think the only aspect of the camp before you is the platform and the kind of the zip line trail. I'm not sure if a condition like that on the operation of the camp is subject to a condition like that being added by the board. I didn't phrase my... Certainly it could. My suggestion wasn't that we eliminate their conditional use, but that the zip line wouldn't be passed along to another buyer. I understand. Thank you. This is sort of off the mark, but I was down on the bridge across Boone Creek when we had a big flood a couple of years ago. that took away your two-car garage and moved your propane tank and washed away your dumpster. And I was surprised to see you relocate the dumpster in the floodplain because it will get washed away again. There's still trash from your two-car garage that was chock full all along the creek downstream from you. So I'd like to suggest that we have them move their dumpster out of the floodplain if they would be agreeable to that. it's not zip line related, but you are here asking for a favor in this conditional use from us, and I thought maybe you could concede that. It's just an idea. We'll talk about it in a minute. Mr. Frane? Mr. Frane, if you'd come up here. We've actually looked into moving that, and there is actually a concrete platform where that garage used to stand that we will be probably submitting in the near future within the next year or two to turn that into a green space and then also move the dumpster, and I do think that's a good idea. Thank you. I only have one other thought, and that's regarding the recreational ZODA that's been in the works for maybe two years. And it's only a draft, but in its draft form it is recommending that zip lines be prohibited in the AR zone. That seems like a strong sign that should be taken into consideration. In the Boone Creek Adventures application that was turned down a couple of years ago, one of the findings of the Board of Adjustment, among many others, was that the zip line was not mentioned in the zoning ordinance and the activity the zip line most closely resembles as an amusement ride which is prohibited in the AR zone. That is still a good argument and a precedent as well. So that's all I have for you Mr. Phan and for the staff. Thank you. Mr. Marks, did you want to weigh in on the one of Mr. Griggs comments was about adding a condition regarding the inspection and being certified by... I think we're fine with the conditions as it's worded if we get to the point where we think what they're submitting is not substantial enough and we can't work it out then we would just have to come back to you all and revisit that that issue. Thank you. I'd like to ask staff too, and talking about the last comment that Mr. Griggs made, because quite frankly I'm not in favor of attaching a number of conditions to this. My biggest issue was when we had the Boone Creek situation before Adventures, the difference between the two. And I, you know, because at the end of the day, you know, when we've had such a controversy over over zip lines which again are not identified in the zoning board is what's what makes this unique that would give this body the authority to to support it if that's what in fact the board chose to do I think the two major differences between this application and that one are scale and use the scale of that particular application involved about 15 or more platforms this one involves one in Fayette County and one in Clark County the scale of this is probably less than 10% maybe even less than 5% of the scale of the other in terms of use the number of persons using this facility the staff believes will be limited to those basically using the campground and so we We don't see a huge impact to the neighborhood from additional people coming to this site. We think from talking with the applicant that most of the users of this would be people already coming to the camp whether this facility ends up being built or not. So I think those are the two primary differences that the staff saw. In addition, the primary use of this property for many decades has been for a campground. I think from our review and what we tried to say in our report is that that will still be the dominant use of this property again, whether this addition gets built or not on the site. Thank you, Ms. Schilling. Ms. Meyer? Another difference would be that this is a non-commercial enterprise. and enterprise I think in the sense that there will not be patrons coming and paying a fee to get on this facility if they're the campground itself probably does have a commercial aspect to it so again depending on your definition of commercial non-commercial I'm less comfortable with that but this part of it won't have an extra fee or additional patrons in the staffs view in the applicant may elaborate on that but it'll be part of what's already going on there in our view thank you mr. Silley does anybody else have anything for staff or for the applicant so just to clarify the way I understand it is they have never received a conditional use permit for this property we believe that the campground was established just a short period of time before the county ever had zoning restrictions for zoning regulation. So it was used as a camp then. It's not a non-conforming use. It's a conditional use without a conditional use permit because of the timing. I think that's the best way to say it, yes. And so they're asking for an expansion of the conditional use permit for a camp that they would have had had they applied for it. had it been newer than the county zoning i think that's correct yes and so really what we're doing this is sort of like if a church you have a church that exists and they want to build onto their facility they come back and ask for an expansion of their conditional use permit so that's what's going on here yes and the last condition makes it clear that the only people who can use the zip line or people attending the camp. That is the intent of the staff's recommendation on that condition, yes. Well, it says sponsored church camp activities, so that doesn't mean they have to be attending the camp. Or does it? Can I ask a question? This is not a church, right? Okay, I just want to make sure that's clear. It's not a church, it's a church camp. So what exactly does sponsored church camp activity mean? I'll let the applicant answer that question. I won't sit down again. I think they wrote it that way because for it to say sponsored church camp activity, that would include our retreats that also come, our school day trips that come from Fayette County Public Schools, or our church camp, which would quantify the summer camp experience. Does anybody else have any other questions for Mr. Fan or the staff? Well, at this point, we've come down to a decision. The board will certainly entertain a motion. I make a motion. We approve C-2014-72 Bluegrass Christian Camp appeals for a conditional use permit to extend existing zip lines ropes from Clark Clowney to Fayette County in the agricultural rural zone at 7463 Athens Boonesboro Road based on the approval from staff and the four conditions that are in place. Thank you Mr. Forster. Is there a second? I second the motion. There's a second. Thank you Ms. Whitman. Will all in favor signify by saying aye? Aye. Any opposed? Opposed. Mr. Griggs and Ms. Myers opposed, but we have a majority and we approve. Good luck with the camp and have a nice holiday. Thank you very much for your time. Mr. Chairman, before we begin item C, 2014-74, your next item on your agenda, the staff has a large amount of paper that we'll need to pass out, and I just wanted to, just the logistics of getting that paper to you will take a little bit of extra time. Before I call the applicant up, we'll let the staff pass something out. Mr. Chair, I apologize. We have a pass. Sir, you need to come up. Hold on. Why don't you just hold on for just a moment and let them pass. If you have something that you want the staff to pass out, you give it to them, okay? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the time. The staff has distributed you copies of about 40 letters we have received for this application, approximately 30 in favor and approximately 10 in opposition. Mr. Emmons is handing out two letters that were just delivered to us since your meeting began on this case. We've also handed out a staff exhibit on the legal size sheet that we were asked about from the law firm representing the opposition and we were able to pull this information together for your hearing on this. Thank you. You'll need to give us a few minutes to go through these and we'll get to you. Thank you. If I can see them, I would appreciate it. but it's not the original yeah the original originals Thank you. Okay. Give us just a couple more minutes. There is quite a bit of material from both the applicant and the opposition that we're seeing for the first time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. While we're waiting for Mr. Glover to get back, I'd like to ask by a show of hands, How many folks here are here to support the application? Raise your hand. How many of you expect to speak? I'd like to ask those in opposition, would you raise your hand? How many of you plan to speak? Well, I want to set some ground rules here. And number one is that we prefer to have a spokesperson, whether it be your legal counsel, whether it be the applicant. We don't deny anybody an opportunity to support the applicant or the opposition. But one thing that I will ask you, we will ask you to stand down if we have any repetition of comment. Because at the end of the day, there's a lot of material here, both in support and in opposition. And we are very careful of your time and our time. and we do not want to hear repetition from a bunch of witnesses that are coming up here today. So if you have something different to say, we'll welcome and we'll hear that, but we don't want to have any duplication, and if that's the case, you probably need to find if three or four of you want to talk about the same thing, you probably need to pick one person to do that. I think we've all had an opportunity to take a look at this. I'd like to ask the applicant, Ms. Stonchev, to come up, please. And I hope I'm enunciating that correctly or close to it. State your name for the record. Yes, Asiya Tunova Stonchev. Thank you very much. The staff has actually recommended approval subject to five conditions, and do you agree to abide by those? Yes, sir. Very good. I'd like to ask, normally we're going to bring the opposition up here and let them state their case, and then you're going to have an opportunity to speak as well. But I guess my question is, I think back in January or back in February of 2008, you were before this board for the very, very similar request, and you were turned down. And I'd like to ask, what difference do these four-plus years make, and why is this application different from the one that you were denied four years ago? Yes. Yes, that's correct. I was turned down back in 2008. In this very same meeting, the main reason is I was led to believe Mr. John Groft, who was the homeowners association president at the time, stood up here in front of this board and said that there was a large opposition, giving the impression that the entire neighborhood was up in arms against me. At the time, I was very inexperienced. It was my first hearing. I did not know that I have to have support to show support. Well, as it turns out, actually, I have a very large support in the neighborhood, and none of my neighbors have complained or authorized that board back in 2008 to show their opposition. When Mr. Groff was asked to present the documents to prove the large opposition that he cited at the time, all he had was three emails. One of them was from an opposition neighbor who showed up at the hearing, Ms. Dagmar Howard, I believe is her name, The other email was a letter of a concerned neighbor who was part of the record here, so that's two oppositions. And then the third was just an email with general questions. We never saw minutes when I requested to see the minutes from the meeting when Mr. Groft claimed that they voted, the majority of the board members voted in support. I've got an email which by the way I have here replying to me that the board members voted not to provide me with that information. I never saw any document to prove that that homeowners association had large opposition letters sent to them, or I never saw any document that that homeowners association, that that board voted with majority against for the homeowners association to oppose my case. That is the main reason I understood at the time that, no, it's not my neighbors, and that actually, yes, I can have support from neighbors, as you can see from the many letters that have been sent. The second reason why I'm applying for that, why I'm trying this again is, at the time, the reason for the board to reject my case, I believe, was traffic. There was a couple of conditions, and you have a copy of the minutes. One of them was traffic. Um, we recently, just a few months ago, had a new four-way stop installed on the corner of Fiddler Creek Way and Clearwater Way, and I believe that has made a huge difference in the traffic because we used to have a lot of cut-through traffic to avoid a four-way stop on the corner of Saran Drive and Clearwater Way. They would come down Fiddler Creek to avoid that other stop sign. Well, now we have a stop sign on the corner of Fiddler Creek Way and Clearwater, so we no longer have people interested in cutting through Fiddler Creek. Also, I have made a lot of changes in the way I'm operating the child care When it comes to traffic and parking in my policy, I have assigned pickup and drop-off times for the parents to assure that I never have more than two cars at a time in my driveway, to park in my driveway, which is the two designated spots and one designated spot in the garage. I have made a lot of changes to my policy to avoid. Also, I have assigned hours for every family. In other words, my operating hours are from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m., but every family, and I would like to show all that here because I have copies of the policies and all that. Every family has specific hours. That way I avoid of no, you know, no more than one or two people being at my residence at a time. Also, I would like to point out that I currently have, do I need to show these documents or would you request to see them if you need? We'll, it's up to the board, but generally we, if we would like to, you want to handle the staff and. Okay, all right. That would be great. If you can please show that. So, as you can see on your screens, I have the conditional certificate of occupancy that currently allows me as an accessory in home family child care to provide children, to provide care for no more than six children at any given time. Now, there are no conditions or restrictions, according to this certificate, of hours. In other words, with this permit, I can provide 24-7 child care out of my house. And as you can see, I have the right to. So I feel like with just six children, let's say I can run different shifts. I can have six children come in the morning from 7 a.m. to 12 p.m. I can have another six come from 1 p.m. to 6 p.m., and then I can have another six come for second shift. That is just one scenario. I'm not saying I'm doing that right now, but I just want to point to send a point across. So you can see the amount of traffic I can create and the amount of, you know, movement I can create in my residence with just this permit that I already have and that I can use. With you allowing me to have 12 children, with you approving my conditional use permit for 12 children, there is restrictions there that say that I can only operate from Monday through Friday, completely avoiding operation on the weekend. and I can only operate on Monday through Friday from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. So I believe that with being allowed to have 12 children where I can meet my income needs, I would create less traffic and less movement in my house than I can that I will with the six children now because I have to provide all kinds of creative hours and times in order for me to meet my income needs. Very good. Thank you. I'd like to ask the board, before I ask you this, sit down for just a second, because we'll hear from the opposition, and you'll have an opportunity to come back up. Does anybody have any questions for Ms. Stonechef before? We're going to come here. Okay. Thank you very much. Um, yes. State your name for the record. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. My name is John Billings. I'm with the Billings Law Firm. We represent the Homeowners Association for the Pinnacle Subdivision. Mr. Billings, before you begin, obviously the staff has recommended approval And as you're well aware, the board denied this because of excessive traffic and speed on the street. The way that the children can be dropped off as they pull into the driveway. The third condition was for the following reason for disproval was the subject is located at a T intersection where traffic is too congested. So what I'd like to ask you to do, too, is the staff has recommended approval subject to the five conditions, and I'd like for you to share with this body why you think that we should disapprove again. And we see, I noticed that you prepared a very lengthy opposition. I hope you're not going to read that page by page, by the way. Mr. Chairman, even if you asked me to, I'd probably refuse. With a lot of respect, but I would still refuse. Mr. Billings, thank you very much. You know lawyers like to put things in a record, and what we wanted to do was make sure that we got a lot in the record to support our position, and we thought obviously that should be shared with members of the board. That's the only reason for the big packet. The homeowners association is kind of an awkward position I guess in a way, but it's a subdivision with restrictive covenants. And essentially those are found in tabby, tabs F and G really are just supporting material showing that these are the applicable restrictive covenants. On page one it's of those it states that this is a subdivision for single family residents. It's a residential community. Then on... Mr. Billings, I want to stop you there for just a second. You are aware that neighborhood deeds and restrictions are not applicable, and we do not interpret or enforce that. Absolutely. I was trying to give context to why the board has retained our firm to be here. That's the purpose of it. And it prohibits commercial businesses. So that's our reason. And let me jump into the 2008 application, and it's found under tab B the last page before, well, there's a blank page in my copy, but it's the next to last page with writing before tab C. And this really is the, I think, the big concern. There is a new crosswalks stop sign system at Fiddler Creek and Clearwater. I think that's an indication of how serious the traffic problem is out there. it would be pretty remarkable if the traffic situation were better today than it was six years ago. And it's from, we don't have a study except for the one on clear water. And speed is a big issue. It's one that's noted in the reasons for denial in 2008. and right behind that is tab C is a 2007 traffic study of Fiddler Creek which again talks about excessive speed in the area and the concern is that the the driveway is kind of slanted driveway you have people sorry pulling into the driveway then when they back out they've got to look to their left and to the right and there's a T intersection so they've got to look behind there also to as they back out and it creates the more traffic you have doing that the greater the risk of a of accident happening and for a residential neighborhood that's you know one reason people buy it in residential neighborhood is to avoid the commercialization issues of traffic. So I think this, the basis for the board's denial in 2008 still exists. There's really no evidence that it would be different. The evidence is that there's still a serious traffic problem in the area and common sense would tell us that Lexington traffic overall especially the Sarin Drive pinnacle Waterford area has increased over the last few years I'd like to mention the legal size sheet that the staff handed out. Mr. Emmons was kind enough to provide us with a handwritten copy yesterday. We didn't have sufficient time to research all of that, but it looks like for the, just what we could do off the top of our head quick research the child care facilities that are in our threes are in neighborhoods that don't have restrictive covenants and I think that's although again you are fully recognize you don't enforce those or interpret them I think it still is evidence and something to consider when this board is is thinking about whether this is going to have an adverse effect on the neighborhood And another point that that kind of leads to is that there's a child care center down on Saran Drive. There's two up in the Brandon Crossing area, which is very close to Veterans Park, since Veterans Park School seems to be of an interest here for providing child care for those teachers. And there's another one out on Nicholasville Road at Bethel Church. So I think there's child care available without creating an extra traffic problem on Fiddler Creek. Just one second, look at my notes. I guess this will be reiterating, but our concern is people backing out of this driveway on a street that is known to have traffic that travels above the speed limit, especially when you've got it close to a school district and it's a residential area. So I'd be glad to answer any questions that anybody might have. Does anybody have any questions for Mr. Billings, Ms. Meyer? I do. um looking at the traffic study into from 2007 yes ma'am one of the recommendations for traffic calming a measure would be to put up signs to ask people to slow down and there were examples in here of what could be put on you know signage um drive fun no need to speed and that there's uh you know children there are pictures of children playing or keep kids alive drive 25 yet when i went out there today i didn't notice any signage like that um i just wondered if if you know the neighborhood you know is um concerned about the speed with or without the daycare there So why are there no signs? They are concerned about it. In fact, my understanding is they've sought to get speed bumps put on Fiddler Creek. No. Is it? Well, this traffic study says that speed bumps or humps, school buses, and would not travel down streets with speed humps. And they're no longer eligible for street sweeping or snowplowing or salting operations by LFUCG. But, you know, I'm just wondering about the signage. Some of the board members are here. Perhaps they could answer that. I'm not sure why there are no signs. I know they were involved in getting the three-way stop and crosswalk at Fiddler Creek and Clearwater intersection. Well, and again, is there a possibility to get a three-way stop at Fiddler and Marbella? We would not, we would study it if that was requested to put a multi-way stop there. Traffic engineering, looking at speeds and volumes, do not use stops as traffic calming. The previous study, we did recommend multiple options options and the neighborhood was petitioned twice for the speed humps and those failed i'm sure due to the cost and the restrictions was there any discussion about signage i don't remember if they did i think in the report it did discuss signage and at that time the neighborhood wanted to go for the speed humps and then that failed okay does anybody else have any other questions for mr. Billings I do it's your one question I'm impressed with your packet seems so comprehensive and I'm looking for a report that describes all the accidents there's been on fiddlers way there's 50 houses with no way to turn around in their driveways everybody's backing out onto fiddler way where where are all the accidents that have occurred. Your Honor, or excuse me, the professional have to call somebody in the position of your Honor. So I did not request something like that. Seems like it would be really in your favor to know that there's been a lot of accidents there. So I'm thinking maybe there haven't been any. I don't know. I did not ask. I'd assume staff may be able to answer that but I I don't know thank you okay any comment mr. Evans the division of planning has not looked at any accident report data on Fiddler Creek way I I don't know if Casey traffic engineering did or did not we did not look at current traffic collisions but the report did look at it when the when the previous report was done and there were two in a three-year period and that was on the not at the Fiddler Maribel intersection it was along the whole stretch mr. Glover I have a question of staff maybe of legal in the light, in light of the deed restrictions for the neighborhood, if we grant this application, are we creating a conflict between this conditional use and the deed of restrictions that would create an issue for the courts? We don't get involved in any kind of private agreement, which a deed restriction is. Right. So if the neighborhood association wanted to proceed that way, they would have to proceed that way privately. You know, I don't think there's going to be a conflict with, because deed restrictions can't prohibit what our zoning ordinance says. They can prohibit it as to their private agreement, but that has no effect on how this body acts. So if we were to approve the application in the face of the deed restrictions, the approval of the request for conditional use would win over the deed restrictions? I can't say that either. I mean, it would be a legal action between a private homeowner and a neighborhood association or whoever the enforcing body is as to that private agreement, and I don't know how it would come out. I mean, I don't think that it would – I can't tell you that. That would certainly probably be a consideration. But as a matter of course and policy, the Irving County government doesn't have any ability or any desire, desire, nor has it in the past ever gotten involved in enforcement of deed restrictions or acting on those or weighing in on them? Yeah, I understand, but I'm just kind of curious. I don't want to, I mean, certainly nobody wants to buy a lawsuit, but I presume that our, if we grant the application, our granting of that carries the force and effect just as the zoning ordinance itself would. In other words, that conditional use becomes part of the zoning laws of the urban county government, right? Well, yes. I mean, our decision has the force and effect of law. Your decision, yes, it should, yes. All right. Mr. Clever, may I? I'm not sure. I think, are you asking if this board's action would preclude a circuit court from enforcing the restrictions in an injunction action? I'm trying to figure out who would win that, win such a case like that. And I know that's, you know, again, I'm not inviting a lawsuit by any stretch. And I don't want to, don't want to suggest that. But I just want to know in advance what the, what the force and effect of our decision would be. And I think I understand it, but I don't want to presume. Again, I'm making a record as well. Well, based on our research, this board's action really has no legal impact on a circuit court looking at the restrictive covenants that govern the property. So the circuit court, because the restrictive covenants are a contract between two parties, and two parties can contract to be more restrictive than the zoning ordinance or a conditional use permit. What we couldn't do is say, well, yes, the city zoned it R3, but we're going to contract to allow a pig farm here. We can't do that, but we can make it more restrictive. I understand the arguments on both sides. You know, at the same time that the decision of this board doesn't impact the agreement contained in the deed of restrictions, the deed of restrictions can't impact the force and effect of law encompassed by the decisions of the Board of Adjustments. So again, I just, that's my comment for the record as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Glover. Does anybody else have any questions for Mr. Billings? Did you read this? Very good. Mr. Billings, I know you have some folks from your neighborhood association. Would someone like to come up and speak too much? Please, thank you, sir. But then they try to make it not detectable. Good afternoon. Would you state your name for the record, please? Hi, thank you to the Board of Adjustment. My name is Mark Stringer. I'm president of the Pinnacle Homeowners Association. I'm sorry, your name again? Mark Stringer. Mr. Streeter? Yes, sir. President of the Homeowners Association. Resident since 2007. Right, yeah. I myself moved in Pinnacle because of its data restrictions back in 2007 and supported this board's decision in 2008 that denied this area. This area was not developed as much from a traffic standpoint, not as many homes, businesses in the area, and traffic was still a problem then. It has since progressed in seven years with additional homes. Businesses along Sarin Drive and Fiddler Creek is a major artery of the subdivision and a major cut through. We have heard from residents along Fiddler Creek and documented that for years that traffic has been and speed has been a horrendous issue and used as a cut through. Speed reducing devices has been attempted twice by residents. One by Bill Meck, a former member of this board, attempted to actually went door to door and tried to get a petition signed to get the speed humps in, and that was unsuccessful by the residents on Fiddler Creek. In late 2012, early 2013, I was contacted by numerous residents about assisting with the help to approach the city to obtain stop signs at Fiddler Creek and Clearwater. We worked with George Myers, Councilman Myers, and Councilwoman Beard in that effort to help reduce the speed and give many families that walk to Veterans Park Elementary a place to cross and parents for both dropping off and picking up the children that use Fiddler Creek and the bridge as area parking. After a traffic study in the community meeting with zoning and planning, Lexington Police Department, members of City Council of Julian Beard, George Myers, and their staff, streets and roads and traffic engineering, there was a need for this. Based on the study along Clearwater Way, the average daily traffic posted was 3,654. Speed was 25. The average speed was 35. The percent exceeding speed was 79 percent for an 85th percentile of 41.5 miles per hour along 4340 Clearwater. The daily average was 2,172 cars and the average speed of 45 miles per hour in a zone of 25. The average speed of 41 miles per hour and a 76% exceeding for an average of 56%. This combined to the numbers that were done in 2007 would, in my opinion, prove that the added traffic flow in this area for those to ask for speed reducing vices and cut through reducing mechanisms to be put in place in one instance and in others to say there are no traffic issues with cars coming and going from a daycare to add more problems are not being factual in our opinion. supporting a neighbor and friends. We believe along those 30 letters, we are a member of association of 1250. We believe that those 30 letters in favor of this daycare, especially some of those that are outside of the Pinnacle area, are not an overwhelming majority wanting this. Are you saying that your overwhelming majority of 1200 want this? I'm saying based Based on what we have heard from several emails from residents, I know that there's been Facebook posts and our neighborhood Facebook page in favor, they all seem to be in a general area and possibly clients of the person applying for the application. Our opinion is, you know, where does it stop? Basically, what if two or three more additional scenarios open up? Can we imagine the traffic issues that that would garner then? If we had another resident or two residents on Fiddler Creek that wanted to do the same thing, this already being a major cut-through in that area would more impede more traffic problems in that area and more complaints from residents. So what we've seen over the years is being present since 2011, the concerns at public meetings, at annual meetings that we've had, we've hired off-duty Lexington police to patrol our neighborhood, to address some of the speeding issues throughout the entire neighborhood because it's a cut-through. We have a lot of pizza delivery over there that cut through that area, and it's always been an area of major concern. I believe one of the pictures, if it's not part of your house pack, I'll be glad to provide that, is at a T intersection. The home is at a slant. There is another home. At that home, there's no more than two spots for a car to pull to park. So are other of our neighbors and residents going to be inconvenienced by more added, you know, doubling a daycare size? There are many nearby commercial daycares right nearby in the business district along Duval and Seren Drive, as well as Brandon Crossing has been stated, and folks have done the right thing in renting a commercial piece of property to run their businesses. As a past business owner, I did the right thing and did that by renting space to run that out of. That's what we're asking here. For homeowners that have and will in the future to pay nearly $300,000 or more for a residence, should not be forced with a 12-child-run daycare right next door to them. All of us that have kids cannot say that 12 children outside in the spring, summer, and fall would not be disruptive to homes that are so close by. For those neighbors that are friends or clients that say that they're okay with this, future residents moving into these homes and paying nearly $400,000 for a piece of property to learn after the fact that there is a 12-child daycare right next door, as close as these houses are, and they seem to be getting closer and closer, to me would be disruptive. On a personal level, I would find that highly disruptive. Again, I would ask the board to reflect in 2008 when they denied the ruling that an application, was that ruling defied as currently states that she's keeping up to six children in her home right now and granting bad behavior to now grant 12. If we give 12, what's to say that that number doesn't push to 13, 14, 15 when she states making a living out of her residential home? As to keep that many children, you would have to have helpers, obviously, as well. This residence, as we stated, only has a two-car drive and a limit of no more than two vehicles parking in front. So other residents will have to be inconvenienced with parking in front of their home. What if they were having a family get-together and everybody showed up at the same time? We obviously know that everybody has different work schedules, and most parents get off at 5 o'clock and everybody shows up at once. Then obviously with everybody coming home at rush hour at 5 o'clock, we've kind of created more congestion there that would have to be dealt with. My son personally is in private daycare with somebody that's had years of experience. and just asking opinions from somebody with nearly 30 years of child care experience, would a 12-member daycare be disruptive? She only keeps two kids out of her home and is not in the deed restricted community and not where some area traffic would be an issue. And the answer to that is, of course. Speaking with a realtor in the area, would this be disruptive to property value? Does this open the door for more daycares? Hey, this resident applied for a daycare. I'd like to apply for a residential permit. And they think that that would be a very big impact on property value as well. In the private daycare, let's see. Mr. Streeter, let me ask you, too, we're not talking about private daycare. We're talking about this and also just a point of clarification. The ordinance only allows up to 12 people. it doesn't allow 14, 15, or 16. So anyway, let's stick to the issue and private daycare if we would. Yes, sir. Appreciate that. Going back, I received, like I said, as I stated, received an email from Laura Cook. I believe she, I'm not sure if she still lives on Fiddler Creek about the stop signs. We worked with George Myers to do that. The drop-off time I know that was mentioned by the applicant just before and that she has a schedule of pickup times. Obviously, stuff comes up in everybody's busy day schedule, and I think that that's unrealistic as far as trying to keep a, you know, if everybody shows up and trying to contain that, obviously. Email I did receive from a letter from somebody on Fiddler Creek, basically just a cliff note of that, I strongly support any efforts to increase the safety on Fiddler Creek Way and especially for our children. I strongly supported Bill's efforts for speed bumps, which is surprisingly rejected twice. Fiddler Creek Way has become a cut through to the park, school, et cetera. It is very dangerous for the residents and their families. I would like speed hump issues to be addressed again in connection with the crosswalk. I'm amazed we have not had a serious accident yet. At minimum, maybe the speed limit could be reduced to 15 miles per hour. That was from Scott McKinney, dated to me October 26, 2012. and I have many of emails you know to state that not sure if anybody's looked again with one of the aerial shots that we pointed out obviously you want to hand that to you hand that to staff so they can put that up on the screen what we have encountered with veterans park being so close in proximity to this house only a few houses down here on fiddler creek A lot of these cars basically park illegally whenever a member of Lexington Police come out at our annual meeting whenever we were talking about the stop sign implementation was that this area was not, and I believe Traffic Engineering can relate to this because it was one of their statements, it was not designed for this. At first they were talking about doing a bulb out and all that. A lot of these residents park along that bridge on Fiddler Creek and then also along down Fiddler Creek on both sides to get the children out of those cars and to walk them across that crosswalk, creating more of a traffic coming down. You can basically only go through the center of that street with cars parked on both sides. That's in the afternoon and of the morning that that occurs. Another concern that we would have is there's a large green space back here in this area. I'll hand that to you. That's a creek. I know that this board has stated, I believe in the conditional use permit, that a fence would be implemented or need to be implemented. This has a lot of water and retaining. that's obviously a concern for us to well. With 12 children running around, it's kind of hard to keep track of all of them. What if, you know, for some reason someone got out and we've got a creek this close by? So that's obviously a concern for us. But based on the traffic study alone from Fiddler Creek that was done back when the stop signs were implemented, know that Mr. Billings' firm had reached out traffic engineering to see if one had been done for actually Fiddle Creek since 2007. They stated it had not. I personally asked them to try to look at, see if we could look at maybe the accidents and try to find that information out. And I believe with a short notice they didn't have time to do that. I'm kind of curious about that as well. As far as that, that's kind of the homeowner's stance on that. based on, again, 1,250 residents of our community. We strongly back the deed of restrictions. I know that this board doesn't look at those, but we do seriously as a board from a legal standpoint in taking those serious and have been asked by our residents to uphold those and enforce those, and we plan on doing that. So, and... Questions? I'll reiterate my question about the signage related to the, that was suggested in the 2000 traffic study. was there any discussion with the neighborhood, the association, the homeowners association, to put in some signage to get people to slow down and realize that there are children in the neighborhood? At that time, I recently come onto the board, I believe November 2010, so it was kind of previous to me, and we moved in mid-2007. So as far as the previous discussions on that, I'm not sure. That is a very good valid point. If we address signs like that on just Fiddler Creek, We would have a lot of homeowners from other streets clamoring, why not on my street, what on my street. And that is a huge expense that this homeowners association would have to occur with 1,250 homes. I'm not sure exactly how many streets we have, but it's quite a few. We've even been asked to have salting and plowing of those streets, and that's a huge expense as well. And if we do it for one, we're kind of obligated to do it for all. Do you know how funny it sounds that you would think putting up a sign to slow people down is too expensive, but you've hired an attorney to make you a half-inch pack of information? I understand that. We've had people ask the same thing about Neighborhood Watch. And I know the Neighborhood Watch provides with one sign, and there's an additional cost on that as well. And we have to be prudent with our association dues. I think Ms. Myers has a really good point. There's no apparent effort on your part to get children at play signs put on these streets. How much can you care about it? I think you're really just worried about having a small business, which, by the way, it seems like your homeowners association deed of restrictions allows. It says no trade or business of kind except for home occupations allowed under the applicable zoning ordinance, which this is allowed. Then it says it can't be detectable from outside, which, of course, you can see people coming and going, so it is detectable. But on the next sentence, it says, and does not involve large numbers of persons coming and going. And large is really a hard term to define, and I don't think this will create a large number. So I don't believe there will be a lawsuit. I would urgently disagree that 12 cars coming and going, if somebody paid $400,000 for a home, that they would find that disruptive. And like I said, what it does is open the door for somebody else if we have two or three more along that same street. Thank you very much. You're welcome. And just to point out, I did work with George Myers and Julian Beard very, very thoroughly on the stop sign at Fiddler Creek to address the safety concerns because I do care about the children there, definitely. Stop signs are different from slow down signs. I understand. They're $25 each according to the packet that I've, the sheet that's in my packet, $25 each. I have a question. You're the president of the Homeowners Association. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Is the concept of child care itself consistent with the residential character of this neighborhood? I'm sorry. Can you repeat? I had a hard time. Is the concept of child care consistent with the residential character of this neighborhood? It is a lot of families in that. I mean, it's a family-oriented home owners association. I believe that's what you're asking. Yes, there's a lot of families. What I would point out is with so many daycares nearby along Sarin Drive and in commercial districts to accommodate those, that's what I would refer to to accommodate. Yes, it is a family-oriented neighborhood. Okay. Thank you. Yes, sir. any other questions for mr. Streeter I'm going to give the neighborhood an opportunity the association if somebody else would like to speak I want to make sure that we're not going to hear any repetition if you have something new to offer please come forward state your name for the record thank you for your time thank you mr. Stumbo I wanted to if you don't mind as far as the traffic goes it's kind of been stated that it's the cut through traffic that's the volumes and the speeds, from a traffic standpoint, 12 additional cars isn't going to affect those numbers. The problems there are the cut-through traffic. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Hi, I'm Alexandria Stewart. I have lived in the Pinnacles since June of 2002, and our neighborhood has exponentially grown to 1,250 families. And part of the reason why I picked the pinnacle is precisely because of the deed of restrictions. I was a real estate agent up until two years ago, and there's a quality about that neighborhood that I would like to see maintained. and I feel like allowing this property to go and double its business usage is like taking the finger out of the dike and allowing this to go on, perhaps on every street in our neighborhood. And then what's to stop it? It'll be a precedent, and you all will be the reason why it's a precedent. but I really, I love children. I have a four-year-old son and I just recently went to look for a new daycare and there are four nearby. They're competitively priced all hours of the day. They're beautiful facilities. Some have big gyms in them. So they're year round. So there is plenty and they all have open enrollment right now for every age. So I don't believe this business is meeting a need that is valid other than she would like to make more money. So that's where I'm coming from, and I have a question. When she moved into this property, did she move into it for the property, for the neighborhood, or did she choose to start a business and then double that business? I I find it strange that she would pick a neighborhood with this restrictions knowing When you go to the closing table, you have to sign off on all this Why would she choose a neighborhood like this? Why didn't she choose a neighborhood with more property where she wouldn't have an issue? That's what I feel. Thank you, mr. Does anybody have any questions for mr? Mr. Let me just a point of clarification to is that is that you know we do not decide the planning and zoning ordinances. Those are in place that do allow this up to 12 children. So that's not our, we don't write the zoning ordinances for it. I just wanted to clarify that because it's really not on us. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. We're actually here to, you know, we're as a board, as a volunteer board, you know, we're here to listen to the applicant. We're here to listen to the opposition. We're listening to the staff as well. And at the end of the hearing, I think that we render a fair and impartial decision based on the information and based on also what the zoning ordinances and the laws allow. Right. I just know it was clear as a bell when I moved into this neighborhood that this is what you're signing on for. And I'm questioning why she wants to be the one and only that has a daycare on Fidler Creek or in our neighborhood. We'll give her an opportunity to respond to that, Ms. Stewart. Ms. Stewart, I do have a question before you leave. When did you move into the neighborhood, did you say? June 26, 2002. Was the zoning ordinance in place then? I'm assuming it was. And the zoning ordinance allows for this zone. for conditional uses for child care up to 12 children as a conditional use. I thought it was up to six. Well, the zoning ordinance that I have in front of me in the application says 12, and maybe Jimmy can explain. I think I can clarify. Family child care, which is defined by providing child care in your home, it has to be primarily your resident. You live there. keeping up to six children is an allowable accessory use, meaning that the Division of Planning staff can look at and sign a zoning compliance permit for up to six children for family child care. Between seven and 12 children is an allowable conditional use, which is what is filed for today. Ms. the applicant has applied for and received a zoning compliance permit for the allowable six accessory family kids in a family child care. And she has now applied for, and that's what we're discussing today, the 7 to 12. And as it was pointed out earlier, beyond 12, that's no longer a family child care, and that would be a child care center, more of a business and not primarily a residence. Thank you, Mr. Hunnis. Okay. Well, I was, I guess, confused by the language in the staff summary that said that the zoning ordinance allows for family child care up to 12 children. as permitted in the conditional use. I thought that's what this application was for. It is. It is. Okay. She's requesting for up to 12 children. And has that, and my question was primarily, Ms. Dewey, if that zoning ordinance was in place in 2002 when she bought her home. Yes, Mr. Glover, these are the basic regulations we've had since the early 1990s. Okay. All right. saying, why double, why does she need to double it? To me, why change the way 1,249 other homes are conducted? Well, and their answer is because the zoning ordinance permits it as a conditional use. Like variance, right. Which is the question we're deciding today whether or not to permit it. Right. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Stewart. anyone else from the association want to speak we'll be hearing from the applicant after the speaker no we're gonna hear from this gentleman right here My name is Bill Johnson. I'm a member of the HOA board. I've lived in Pinnacle since 2006. We moved there primarily because we felt that it was a place where we could bring our grandchildren and they would be safe. I have been involved in daycare work for a number of years. My wife and I operated daycare out of our home in Texas and in Alabama. We started out with three children. We got to 14 children. And let me tell you, 14 children creates problems. I don't care how many assistants you have. It creates problems. Twelve kids create problems. You can't put them out in the backyard to play without them creating noise. You have to have food for them. Dietary needs must be met. There must be proper places for them to sleep. All of this is necessary to make sure that they're being well cared for. I have seen nothing from this applicant that states that that is going on, especially the fact of putting kids out in the backyard without a fence next to a creek and the fact that she's been operating illegally since 2006. when you all told her in 2008 that you would not grant the permit, she continued to operate. So why? Excuse me, are you saying that she has more than six children in her home right now? We don't know. She's never proved that to us. What I'm saying is she came to you and asked for a conditional use in 2008. You turned her down. She has continued to operate all of this time. Does she have a state license? Does she have the required liability insurance? That may not be something that you're interested in, but it does interest me for the safety of those kids. The Kentucky state law says that she must have a minimum of $100,000 liability insurance, and it prefers a million. We don't know whether that's in place or not. But I think in all fairness here, you have to understand what was just stated is that she is allowed, but it's an allowable use for her to have up to six children in her home. And she showed us that she has that permit from LFUCG. What she's asking for today is a permit to increase the number from 7 to 12 children. I understand that and I am opposed to that. I am opposed because of the fact of my experience in working with children and running daycare. I am opposed to it because of the fact that it will disrupt the flow and the neighborhood. We have a very, very good neighborhood and we as a board have had to contend with a lot of issues over the last two years that I've been on the board. This issue has been one of the most divisive issues that we have ever had to contend with to the point of name-calling, threats, and other things. And I just do not believe that this board would be acting in a proper manner if you issue that permit. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Anybody else have any questions? thank you very much miss whitman did you have anything no i just didn't very good we ma'am if you have because we have given the opposition a great deal of time if you have something that you want to say that has not been said please do so and we are going to move forward because i we've heard some very very detailed information from from your president and from legal counsel and and the residents and so i got it yes i've been there since 2000 i'm sorry kim Alexander. Ms. Alexander. I've been a resident since 2009. I've been on the board of directors for the last four years. So my question is, is if you allow this and our board of, our deed of restriction says we can't, and I understand you trump us, if somebody wants to open a engine repair shop, do they have to come to you all to get that permit or can they just do it? Mr. Salih, you want to, or Mr. Emmons, you want to say what's allowed? We'll certainly try that sounds like what would be defined under the zoning ordinance as a home occupation and and most of our residential zones including this zone that is a conditional use that does require approval from the board much like this application so that's our concern from the board of directors that if if this is started it's just going to open up the Pandora's box and I moved to that neighborhood for those restrictions because I've lived in about six neighborhoods in Lexington and watched them all plummet with rental property coming in, people jacking their cars up in the front yard. And I wanted somewhere where that wasn't going to happen because I wanted to protect my home values. And that's why I live there. That's why I'm on the board. I think there's a misunderstanding about your question. It'll be straightened out. Thank you, Mr. Griggs. Mr. Emmons, I obviously I misheard. I thought she said a craft shop rather than repair shop. A craft shop is more in kin with a home occupation. Engine repair is generally not a home occupation. Ordinarily that's done in a garage and that is where it exceeds the limits of a home occupation. I apologize for the misunderstanding of what the term was. So do you all, if they came to you, would they have to come to you for an engine repair shop? well first of all we would be granting a repair shop like additional use because it doesn't fall under home occupancy business but any any any business that wants to come here like a craft shopper like like like uh... home care uh... uh... daycare uh... that has to come before us i think what about a dentist and we have her dentist no man those are commercial businesses and those are those are not home occupations we don't have you know uh... dentist operating out of their out of their living room and so uh... uh... they actually that's an entirely different process in home occupations are for those things that uh... alike crash shops are like uh... i think uh... uh... sewing uh... sewing business something along those lines there they're very low traffic they're very low on uh... as far as parking goes as far as the uh... we don't allow retail businesses uh... to coming in and out of uh... of residential neighborhoods but but home occupancy permits are are allowed by By this board through our planning and zoning ordinance, which is what this is. Okay. Thank you. Miss Alexander Yes, Miss Whitman I have been a realtor for 40 years I have yet to have any Client tell me they did not want to purchase a house in a neighborhood where there is a daycare center center quite the contrary especially families with young children look for well cared for in home daycare and there were two statements made that realtors said it devalued the property i cannot support that I think we'd like to hear from the applicants you've we've heard several witnesses for the opposition and and if you would please miss don't you I would love to there was a lot said that I need to address I will try to be brief first time quite a few of the opposition spoke about how long they have lived in the Pinnacle neighborhood. I moved on the Fiddler Creek Way back in 2002 on 973 Fiddler Creek Way. When I moved there, there was actually not even a Fiddler Creek Way. I was only the third house on the street. The rest of the street did not exist at the time. Later on, a few years, I believe three years after that, the street was completed and I moved down the street, 10 houses down the street from where I lived to enjoy the beautiful green space that we have. So I just want to make sure that I did not, that it's understood by the way I built that house. Me and my ex-husband built that house who is a builder in the neighborhood. I did not move into that property to open a daycare. I moved into that property to enjoy the beautiful green space. A lot of things were said, so some of them will be in order. It says that the children are currently in great danger from the creek in the back because there is no fence. The current play area, which is located under a covered and screened deck, is completely enclosed with a fence. The children cannot escape in any way from the area. The property, the actual yard is not fenced. but the play area that the children use is completely fenced. They cannot get out in any way to get across the vast green space we have to get to the creek. I can't believe I can't remember the name of myths that talk about me wanting to make more money. I would like to say that I have been providing child care since 1997. And while I look back and try to find my certificate to show you that the first time, actually, I'm sorry, 1996, I look back and try to find my certificate to show you how long I have been. and I have devoted my life to childcare. I do find this document here which says in 1997 that I was approved for relicensing that I would like to show to you. This is not just a money making for me, this is a passion. I have been taking care of children for that long. And if you read some of the letters that were sent in support, you would see that I have a great reputation, and I believe I have done a great job to the community raising the children of this community. As you can see, this is at a different address where I lived at the time, but right there is my name, Asiya Tunova, and that states that I was approved for relicensing, but I was recertification, but I was originally certified in 1996. If you please be patient with me. It was talked a lot about the amount of daycares that are available to us. I would like to make a couple of clarifications. We have different kinds of daycares. We have a licensed type 1 child care facility, which is for 12 and more children in a commercial area, and that refers to the big daycares that accommodate 150 to 100 children. We have the licensed type 2 child care facility, and that is the so-called child care home. You provide child care out of your residence, and that is for up to 12 children. and also we have the certification that is for up to six children. A lot of the HOA board pointed that there is tons of daycares. That is actually not correct. I have done a search here. We have a referral agency in Lexington. It's called the Child Care Council, and anyone can get on their website, and you can make search by zip code, type of child care you want, and I took the liberty to make that search, And I would like to show you that when you search for a type 2 license facility, the kind that I'm applying here today, in the 40515 zip code area, there is only one facility available. Let me ask if I have a couple questions for you that have been raised here. One I think by Mr. Johnson. What type of certification do you have to go through in insurance and so forth, do you carry? Correct. So when you're certified, you have to apply with the state of Kentucky after you get this permit, and you have to have liability insurance. And here, at this address, I was licensed back in 2006, and I was licensed for a few years there. You have to be licensed only if you watch six children at a time. You can watch up to three children at a time, and for that, you do not require to have any kind of certification. And three children at a time means you can have three children, you know. I mean, you can have a lot more than three children is what I'm trying to say, but as long as at any given time you do not have more than three children, you do not require to be certified for six children. You are required to be certified for 12 children, which are what I'm applying here for today. you are required to be licensed. And the licensing regulations request that I do have your approval before I can proceed with being licensed. Do you have to carry any type of liability insurance? Yes, you have to carry any type of liability insurance. You have all kinds of restrictions. In fact, if the board is interested, I have a copy here, but there are some things I need to refer to of both the licensing and the certification. I don't think it's necessary that we see it. I think that we're inquiring. I don't, we don't have any reason not to believe it. I was just curious about the certification and about the insurance requirement. How much insurance? What's the amount that you carry? Do you know? No, I do not know. I mean, I'm not required to carry this insurance right now because I am currently not certified since I watch less than three children at one given time, but I have more than... But that will be required... Correct. ...if we do grant it. Are you asking me how much it will cost me or how much... No, I'm talking about what's the amount of the policy... Right. ...this gentleman referred to as well. That is spelled out in certification and licensing. I do not know the answer of that right now, of how much you're required to have, but they require you to have you have to show a proof. So whatever the state requires. Correct. Whatever the state requires is what I get. The other question that I have has been one big concern of the association, and I believe Mr. Streeter, the president, talked about, you know, 12 automobiles, you know, coming at one time and dropping off, and you had made in your opening remarks about you've worked with some type of a drop-off and pickup plan because I would agree that, you know, 12 cars showing up in your driveway at one time is going to create an even more complex traffic issue, a congested traffic issue, so to speak. Yes, I would love to address that. So having up to 12 children, it doesn't mean that I will have 12 children. I am currently in the process, and that is part of one of the reasons why I am here today, in being certified as a foster parent. is that whatever foster children I have in my care are going to count against those 12. So let's say I have two foster children, so now I'm allowed to have only up to 10 other children to watch. Out of the other children, 10, it doesn't mean that there will be 12 cars dropping off because a lot of times there is more than one child in a family. So 12 children may mean no more than five cars dropping off and picking up. at any time. It does not mean that there will be 12 cars coming to this property at all times. And also I would like to show here because, you know, they talked about drop off, that it's inevitable. I have very strict restrictions about arrivals and departures. I have tried to be a very good neighbor, practically invisible to everyone. I would like you to see all the efforts that I have put, including giving everyone a laminated sheet that they keep in their car with all the instructions. And I would like to read those to you because some of those issues were brought up. And it says every family has a target drop-off time and a target pickup time, 7 a.m. or 3 p.m. And it reads, pull into one of the two parking spots in the driveway. Make sure that no part of your car is hanging over the sidewalk. If both spots are occupied, take one of the two street parking spots in front of the house. Make sure that your car is facing in the direction of traffic. Do not make a U-turn in the intersection. Do not block the driveway. Turn off the engine. Turn off the lights and lock your car. Do not leave your car running. Proceed to drop off. Exercise caution when backing out of the driveway. Do not leave younger, older siblings in the car. your cooperation is greatly appreciated and so on. I take the safety of the children coming into my home and the children in the neighborhood very seriously. I work with children. I've devoted my life to children. I would not allow for anyone to be hurt. I will do everything in my power to ensure the safety of the children coming in and out and the safety of the neighborhood children. And it does also state that I do have in my financial agreement, it is specifically outlined that everybody has specific hours. In other words, just because I'm open from 1 to 4, it doesn't mean you're going to be there from 1 to 4. One particular family is assigned to be there from 1 to 3. Another particular family is assigned to be there 8 to 12. sure that no more than two cars ever are in the park parked in the driveway and by the way I would like to also say that I have three parking spots because I have two parking spots in the driveway and I have one parking spot in my two-car garage Ms. Meyer? I just have a clarification question. In the first condition, the hours of operation are 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. Thank you, Ms. Meyer. I was going to address that when it became my turn to talk, but in short, that is a typographical error on my part. I was heavily reviewing the 2008 application, which was until 6 p.m., and the current application, and it's clear on her application that she is asking until the 4.30 p.m. And so I do apologize for that mistake in the staff report. I do not think that it makes a material difference in the rest of our report. It was simply I was. So that 6 p.m. needs to be changed to 4.30. 6 p.m. should be changed to 4.30. And that is consistent with her application and consistent with the statements that she made today. I simply was looking at the 2008 application when I typed that, and I apologize for that. Thank you, Jimmy. And I would also like to add that the program will be providing transportation to the families that are interested. I cannot make them, you know, participate, but I will be providing it as a, you know, free part of the program, which probably a lot of the neighborhood families would be interested. So that will limit me making one trip in the morning out of my garage rather than, you know, I don't know, five or six people showing up. Should I continue down the list or do you have more questions? Go ahead and continue and then we'll ask the board for any questions and we would like to hear from some of the folks. Okay. All right. And also I would like to point we have a very good comment from a neighbor, Mary Ann Monk, who lives in the Pinnacle neighborhood. She said that she has 11 children of her own that at some point all lived together. And, you know, there is a lot of families with, you know, five, six, seven children in the neighborhood. It's a family-oriented neighborhood. So, you know, I don't think that 12 will create much of a difference that any other family will. Also, about that, the traffic, I really wanted to point that out, that since currently, and probably most of my business will be from children from the neighborhood or teachers that live at the local school, the traffic would not increase in any way because the people who would be coming to my property, to my home, are people who are going to be driving down the street anyway since they live in the neighborhood or go to the school. So, you know, they are not really, you know, whether I'm there or not, they will be driving down that street to take their children to another daycare or whatsoever. however, but not to mention that I have watched a lot of children in the neighborhood who have actually walked, being dropped off walking, and I believe there was a neighbor here that wanted to talk about that, but I'm assuming she had to leave because of the delay. I'm going to continue down the list. Science, it was talked about, it was questioned about the science, and that was one question I have because the signs are very inexpensive. I was given a list of that signs and just like Ms. Mayer pointed, some of them are as low as $25. I think practically every neighbor can afford $25 to put a sign in front of their house to slow down. That was never, never looked at or, you know, considered as an option. Also, I have a copy here of the report about the speed bumps. It is dated July 6, 2009, and it says that a minimum of 65% of residents must be in favor. And in our case, we had only 28 neighbors in favor, 10 in opposition, and the rest just did not reply. So the proposal for the traffic, for the speed bumps, which was brought up, we've gotten, I believe, it was said that we have had twice, we've tried twice to get speed bumps. really just never passed because really I don't think we need speed bumps a lot like a lot of the other neighbors. It will be nice to slow people down, but I think there is other ways to slow people down rather than having speed bumps that we have to repeatedly, you know, go over. So I believe that we don't really have, if we had such a big problem with speed and traffic on Fiddler Creek Way, we would have approved the speed bumps after being asked twice for it. as far as I know there has been no accidents on Fiddler Creek in the last report I remembered that there was two accidents back in 2008 at the hearing and I believe both accidents were at the corner of Fiddler Creek Way in clear water not from people backing out of the driveways or, you know, just driving down the street. Mr. Marks said something that really touched me again about many opposition, many letters being sent. I would really like for him to show us here, except for the letters of disapproval that were sent from the board members, which I would like to point, neither one of them leaves in the immediate notification area. I would like for him to show what other many emails and letters does he have, because that was product last time and no emails or letters were provided. And again, he's stating large opposition, and I have yet to see the large opposition. I would like to show here at this time an area map of the notification area where I had to send the letters. And as you can see, a lot of the letters of support that were sent in the actual notification area, I believe all the letters that were sent are in support with exception of two. And I do, I believe you have the same stack of the letters of support right here. The lots highlighted in blue have been the ones that have sent letters of support. My lot is highlighted in pink. There is one vacant home and two homes of opposition. I believe Mr. Ammons told me there was two more letters I have not seen a copy of. I don't know if they were in the immediate area. I also have a very similar exhibit that we were creating as things went along. I did color in the two letters that were received in support that I passed out at the beginning of the hearing that were not copies. And I've also highlighted in red the two letters in this immediate area that were in opposition. I would like to say out of the letters of opposition that were passed out for there are limitations on this exhibit because the not all of the letters that were submitted both in support and in opposition provided addresses that we could map for those addresses that were within on the map of the notice area. We did try to highlight them just for a visual reference for the board. Also, I think just from the letters of opposition that you received, in looking at those addresses, I would say that most of those letters of opposition that you received, those addresses are also in the Pinnacle neighborhood, but not within this 500-foot radius area that shows up on this map. Thank you. Continue. Thank you. Also, I have a copy, again, pertaining to the homeowners association and the large opposition of the board. I have a copy here of the members of the current homeowners association that I would like to show. And as you can see, out of the seven board members, there is only three board members that send a letter of opposition. None of the seven members live in the area. But out of the three board members, I mean, you can see that there is the majority. To this day, I have not seen how they voted. I sent an email yesterday to Mr. Stringer requesting to see a copy of the minutes that he says that the board of the homeowners association board voted in majority to oppose this request. And to this day, I have not seen an email from those minutes. He actually never bothered to reply to me. So all we can see right now is only three letters out of the seven-member board that supposedly voted in majority in opposition. Actually, we only see three letters of opposition. Let's see. Where was I? Yes, there was a lot talked about the quality of care Mr. Bill Johnson brought up, how do I provide quality care and about how many people. I think it was kind of hypocritical that he told you that his wife watched up to 14 children, but yet, you know, me watching 12 children will be such a big deal. A lot was talked about that I'm going to have more than one helper. And here I have a copy of the licensing restrictions of the state that shows you the child-to-staff ratio. And the youngest member of the home will determine that ratio for infants, The maximum group size is 10 infants with 1 to 5 child ratio, which means that I can only watch 10 infants. If I choose to, I can only watch up to 10 infants. I cannot watch 12 infants. And that will require me to have only one helper. The next group is toddlers, and it says the staff is, the maximum group size is 12, and the staff ratio is one to six children, which again, considering that I'm going to be one of the staff members, would only require for me to have one helper. We're going on to preschool age, and I'm not going to bother you with all that. The last one is children that are three to four years old. The staff ratio is one to 12. I would not be required to have any helpers, and those are state regulations. In other words, what I'm trying to point out is that it's not going to be two, three employees like it was stated that need two, three parking spaces. There would only be the most one employee and the designated parking space for that employee will be in the two-car garage so the driveway can remain for the use of parents. I'm sorry I'm trying to go over the notes because so much was said that it's hard to kind of address it all. I know we are not here to talk about deed restrictions. Actually, I know what I wanted to say about deed restrictions. Back in 2008, I can't find the copy right now. Back in 2008, I believe Ms. Bell, who is the legal representation for the board for the city was asked the same question, and she said that in no way the city interprets or enforces deed restrictions, that those are private restrictions, and if the homeowners association board has a problem with me, they have to come after me. So I would like to ask that you make your decision based on what you hear, not about the deed restrictions but about everything else. I think we've made that pretty clear. Thank you. So I'm not going to address that because there was a lot said that I don't believe has. We do not interpret or enforce that. I have to say something about traffic. Well, and also, too, just to mention, in fairness of time for the applicant and the opposition, you had mentioned that you were about up to your last point. And we want to, many of this, a lot of this information we've heard, and again, if you would, try to sum it up, because I would like to hear from a couple of your folks here, and then we'll also give the opposition a brief chance. And if you have any more questions for me to address everything that's brought up, I would love to. But at this time, I would like for the people who are here in support to speak. Well, before you sit, is there anyone that would like to? I'd like to ask Ms. Stonch, you have any questions? Okay. Thank you. And again, as I mentioned to the opposition, we have several folks that wanted to speak, and I just caution you all that if you have something new to add, please do. We, in fairness to you all and to both sides and to us as well, we just don't want to hear repetition. If you have something new to add, please do and come forward and state your name for the record. My name is Jeff Helener. I'm a resident. Approximately eight houses from the person applying for this permit. I've lived there since 2009, five years. I have three children, a 12-year-old. Oh, I forgot, a nine and a seven. All girls. You can pray for me later. So it's tough. Both parents are working parents. It's tough to find good daycare. There is a facility near us, but there is a waiting list there. We had to seek other neighborhoods to find our daycare. We found a home. She had the same thing. She had 12 kids there. She had an assistant there, and we got excellent care. So I started asking questions about Ms. Ozzie here, that how was the care? Well, my 7-year-old's teacher has a child in her daycare who says excellent things, and I have copies of that. My neighbor who had to leave had her twins in her care, said it was excellent care. So I think the care is taken care. The reason I got involved was because of a fairness issue. I couldn't believe the HOA was spending our money on a lawyer for this. I appreciate you guys, volunteer board. I was on my HOA in my old neighborhood, and it is hard. I understand these guys. I love this board, actually, because they throw a heck of a neighborhood party. They are great at it. They get us all together. We have a great time. We have always had problems with these deeds of restrictions. They're so conservative that they make us spend a ton of money to appease the tiniest little thing. So when I heard this, I'm like, a lawyer with my money? Where's our lawyer? Where's Ms. Ozzie's lawyer? She's a member of the community. We're paying our dues to have this board exist to help us. So that bothered me. That's why I got involved. I want to talk about a couple things, and then I'm done because my time, I took off work for this. You guys, volunteers. Okay, so real quick. you all are listening. You're a board. You're listening to us. You're letting everyone speak. The board never gave us that option. I begged and begged, and that's where they think there's harassment because I got called from the attorney saying that I was going to get charged with harassment because I was begging them to have a special meeting so we could talk about this so we wouldn't be paying a lawyer to come here tonight. They refused me. They had a closed executive board meeting last night. I was trying to get a note in, which I have here, a note of questions that I asked, and I would be glad to turn that in. The questions, like simple questions I want to ask, they would not respond to me. I also want to go to the map, and if you look at the map, the growth is heading west. We are a small little triangle there, no more growth potential. There's no more houses going up. It's it. We have complained about the humps because of the speed, and God bless the board, they got a stop sign there. It has changed everything. Things are great. I can get out of the neighborhood now. I'm not waiting by my street two blocks to get out of there. I love that they got that stop sign there. Okay, that's another thing. Let's see. I was really hurt not being able listen to. I was hurt that they did that. Oh, another thing. Accidents. I got into an accident. It was on Clearwater Drive. I was turning left into Fiddler Creek. It was prior to the stop sign. The lady was looking at kids worried they were going to cross. So she's worried the kids are crossing. She wasn't looking at us and rammed us as we were turning left. Guess what? Stop sign solved all our problems. I've not had a single near miss. I've not had anything. It has been terrific. Another problem I have is when they talk, it sounded to me like they weren't trusting your job. If someone comes in with a crack house, that's the kind of sarcasm we've been hearing on these social media sites. Sarcasm. Instead of taking it seriously, you know, they're going to come to the board and say, hey, we'd like to have a business of a crack house at our house, in our neighborhood. Yeah, you're going to prove it, sure. Okay. So, daycares aren't going to be in every place. But as two parents at work, I've got to make sure my kids are taken care of. Okay. Let's see. And another thing. If my funds are going to pay for an attorney, the least they could do is do the research, the time to talk. They should be canvassing the neighborhood like Miss Aussie did. She went to every house. I work, I get home at five. I've got three girls in ballet five days a week. I'm not home. She made sure she got a hold of me being at home one night. It was about, it was pretty late, actually, I think. It was like 738. And I said, the daycare, there's a daycare here? And she pointed to her house, from my house, and I said, you're kidding me. I've been here five years. If I had known you had a daycare there, I wouldn't have had to go into the other neighborhood. Okay, so I've been really upset. I've been passionate. I wrote a letter so I'd be calm. So I like to submit that too because I get emotional. I'm an occupational therapist and I just care about people. So sorry about that. Let's see, the last thing. I'm worried about their take on the bylaws and all that and you don't have anything to do with that. But in our bylaws it specifically says no officer shall be elected or appointed to serve a term of office conceding three years. Ms. Alexander reported four years right up here. Mark Stringer, the president, said he had been on since 2010. Four years. So, and I love them. I don't want them to leave because I don't want that job. But I still think if they're following the rules, we should follow the rules then, right? So that's my concern. I hope I don't make any enemies. I'm worried about retaliation. I'm worried about they're going to send me notes that my grass is too long or that, you know, my fence is one centimeter off of a loud area or my kids are too loud and the noise disturbance. I'm worried about retaliation, and that's why people don't send in stuff. And I think that's what happened with the humps. A no response is considered a no. So we have all the support, and we have a few dissenters, and then everyone who doesn't care because they don't have kids, they're not worried about it, they get a no automatically. now. So that's it for me. I hope somebody else has something else too. And I'll calm down about this eventually. Thank you. Does anybody have any questions? I'd like to be a resource too if you have questions. Anybody have any questions? Okay. You're going to have an opportunity to speak after they get done. Oh, can I add one more thing? Quickly. Quickly. The business part of it and not having a business. When I was researching this and looking at businesses in our neighborhood, one of the board members that have talked tonight has a home business, Pampered Chef. It's contradictory. I mean, I feel like it's almost borderline discriminatory against her if one of the board members actually has it, has a business. I wonder if he has a conditional use for that occupation. I wonder too. We should look into that. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you very much. Ma'am? Come on. Your name for the record, please. My name is Susie Nally, and I'm not a resident of the neighborhood, so I'm not in the argument with the traffic and all. But I do want to say I have two grandchildren. They started, Ozzy started the care with my oldest one in 2006. Start to say eight. 2006, and she now currently is keeping my youngest grandson. My daughter is a teacher at Veterans Park Elementary, where most of the residents' children go. And both my son and my daughter-in-law couldn't attend, so that's why the grandparents have shown up in support. I'm a retired teacher of 30 years. I have a master's in education. Early childhood is my focus, even though that wasn't what I taught the most of. But I'm very aware of what the quality of education necessary. What Ms. Ozzie has is not what I would call a daycare, not in the sense that the public might think of as a daycare. There was a block of time when one of my grandchildren was at another location that I would call it a daycare because there was play and they were cared for. What Ms. Ozzie provides is totally above the norm. For someone to say that my daughter-in-law and son-in-law could send their children to a daycare this close by, it would be ridiculous as an educator for my daughter or for me, a daughter-in-law or for me to accept that. That is, just to give you an idea, Miss Ozzie's basement is set up, I would say the area for the children to play and have their play time, their learning time, their eating time is probably about the size of the garage underneath and maybe even larger. She's got an open area that's set up where if they want to watch videos or have something like that. And I think even the cooking area is down there. She provides meals, and I'm not talking about fast food type meals. These are really good meals. she has a time in the day where the children are taught I mean they are really taught skills Reed will come in with a paper mama would you put this on my on your refrigerator we're studying the letter such and such and this is the four year well he just turned four last week so she teaches appropriately to these young children. The play materials that they have are not just what I would have in my playroom. They're educational activities. Her outside, she has one area covering that's got a covered back porch where they can have riding toys that they can play on during the day if it's raining. But if not, they've got this wonderful play area out back that is fenced in. I don't know the business about the creek because these children are so, I'm a very structured teacher. Miss Ozzie is very structured. When you go to pick up the children in the afternoon, she has a note that she, a little checkoff list that tells you what they ate or how they ate and what their movements were like, whatever. Bathroom behaviors were like everything. I mean, you've got a detail. Do you know how your child was taking care of that day? She's got one room, and I'm assuming she still does. I didn't go in that. I haven't been in that one since Peyton was there. But she had one room where there were individual bedding areas. It wasn't sleeping on the floor like you would have in a daycare. These were areas that each child had their own doll, their own place to put their shoes. She's got a bathroom facility for little children and her way of teaching potty training is phenomenal. What I recommended, I have asked my other, my daughter and son-in-law if there was any way that they could manage to get their child in her program. It's, it's phenomenal. Now, can you tell it when you pull up? We, I know the assigned time when we go pick up our little buddy, we do not take it because I don't go that early and I doubt most of the neighbors are up that early. But in the afternoon, when we go to pick up our children, it is such a pleasant experience. My oldest one went with me the other day to pick up the youngest one, oldest granddaughter. And when she left, she gave Miss Ozzie a hug and said, I wish I was back here. Now that to me is a recommendation. And this is a third grader who still loves Miss Ozzie. It's the teacher's children that are there, they seek her out. It's not just take any daycare that's around. It's we want her. And I would recommend her to the highest degree, and I'm a pretty picky person. and I think the teachers that I subbed for would say that. Like I say, our experience goes back to 2006, and in picking up the children on the occasions we have, I have never experienced whatever this traffic problem is. It's no different than where we live, and we live in a T setting and off a main drag. I just the reasoning given by the opposition did not make sense to what I know and I'm out of the area I'm not in this deal with deed restrictions and all that I'm just talking about the daycare thank you miss dally I think you made your point very clear about about the quality of that your grandchildren have is there anything else that you'd like to add unless you've got a question Any questions? Did anybody else want to speak? Ma'am, we're going to give you all a, we're going to, okay, please. My name is Connie Salin, and I live at 961 Fiddler Creek Way, and I believe I'm one of the few people here that actually live on the same street. And I apologize because I'm very passionate about what this woman is going through today. I have lived there since August of 2004 when Aussie lived north of me, about three doors. She and her husband built a house, her now ex-husband, at the other end of the street. I've had a dog for the past seven years that at least once a day, if not twice a day, I walk past Miss Aussie's house because she likes to poop in Miss Aussie's front yard. So I take Princess down because she likes to poop in Miss Aussie's front yard. So I'm there watching my dog do her thing, and I have been privy to many people coming and going. Never have I seen more than three cars there at any one time. And I don't walk my dog religiously at 7.05 every day because I don't have a schedule. I do work, but I'm very free with my job. I can walk her anywhere from 7 to 8 in the morning to 8.30, and nobody shows up all at once. There is a car that has two children that show up. So we're not talking about 12 families because she does care for siblings. Because if she has one sibling and the parents have another child, she provides such excellent care that they want the sibling to come to this woman's house. Never once, and I was on that pinnacle board that these people are representing today for three years. One of those years I was president of that board prior to anybody over there now. And I don't recall any of the social media or anything that Ms. Ossia said that anybody requested of her, show me your licensing, show me your insurance, can I come in and see your daycare. I didn't hear out of any of them that any of them did a physical visit to her or even talked to her. What she said was that she had denial or no comment from the president. And I apologize for saying that because I was sitting on that side of this room, hypothetically, for three years. But I think you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. And I think the issue here is not traffic. It's not anything like that because in the deed restrictions, it says, and I wish I had thought to bring a copy of them, that unless the business provides a nuisance, additional... I really don't care to hear about the deed restrictions because, again, that's not part of our jurisdiction here today. I don't know why they are opposing if they're not opposing to the deed restrictions because I don't know what their role is. None of those people live within the radius or on Fiddler Creek, and they may drive down our street, but they're part of the traffic problem because they use it as a cut-through. So, you know, I think the point in question is, does this woman deserve to keep 12 children? Yes, she does. And is she going to profit from it? Well, yeah, probably. But it's because people are seeking her out and they want her quality of care. And if it means, you know, that I have to call Papa John's and every time somebody speeds down my street to quit them from cutting down my street, I'll do it. and you know I think it should be approved just because she's showed a hundred different ways that she can handle 12 children and that she's made arrangements for the traffic never once have I seen her herbie overflowing on a Sunday night or a Monday morning so I don't think any more children is going to create that much more trash her cans never sit on the curb for more than you know six hours or until the end of the day um and and like i said again i do live on her street and i walk by her house on a daily basis very good thank you very much yes i'm before you stand up does anybody else um i think we've heard quite a bit of testimony i'm going to give this young man an opportunity to come up and introduce yourself and for the record and Hello. My name is Gustavo Cavalcanti. I live in the Pinnacle community since 2000 for the last two years. So I'm recent. 410, I promise to be as fast as I can. I'm not going to tell a story of my life. I'm going to go to points here. First of all, I'd like to say that I genuinely believe that these guys there has the best of intentions. You have to see them in events. They have put a lot of effort. Mark and Kim, I mean I want to work with them to make it better, but the neighborhood is good the way it is because of them. So I believe there's no hidden motives here. They want to, they're opposing because they truly believe that's going to be bad for the community. I totally disagree. First of all, okay, one minute for that. Other daycares. I've used all kinds of daycares. In-home daycares are not the same as the commercial daycare. If you're looking for one, you're not necessarily substituting for the other. That's not the same thing. Second thing, as Ms. Whitman said, I don't believe that's going to decrease the value of the community at all. It's going to increase because all these years, there's only one in-home daycare, and now there's two. How come the argument is if we allow, it's going to be one in every corner? Well, you can have a six-children daycare right now, and there's not one in every corner. You don't need to be here requesting 12 if you can six. So that argument is completely flawed. Traffic. The traffic argument is used here because that's the only argument that can be discussed here. But the real issue is the date of restrictions. That's the real issue. And, of course, that's not an issue to be discussed here. I live far away from the daycare. I don't have children there. I'm not in that radius that was surveyed. But I'm guilty of cutting through traffic in that street almost every day because I have a daughter, a two-year-old, in the commercial daycare nearby. People said that there's speeding in that street. I believe so. But that's because there's no traffic on the street. It's a free street. There's no complications. So people wants to speedy out, they do. I don't. So I use that street every day. I never see any problem, really. Other thing, setting precedence. Okay, this is the main argument and disagreement between neighbors. Setting precedence for future businesses. Kim came here and asked questions very, very valid. I think everybody had that in mind. I have that in mind. In my opinion, that doesn't set any precedence because you all are just looking at what's already prescribed to be in the neighborhood or creating nothing new. So I believe that the board was asked to vote for a position in this without proper counseling, without proper background, without being questions answered. And that's demonstrated by Kim's doubt in, okay, what does this mean? That question should have been asked to our counselor and been answered also to the board, but also to the great, in general, to the neighbors. But, again, this is not the issue here. It's an internal issue to be dealt with. Okay. Somebody said that there's only 30 letters that is supporting the daycare. You know why there's so little? Because nobody has a clue there's a daycare there. I had no idea. When this issue came up, you know, I was very surprised. And there's a nasty Facebook thread with many comments like, really, there's a daycare there? I had no idea. And by the way, the nastiness of the comment, I totally agree that you shouldn't, we shouldn't have that, we should be better educated. Part of that is just the silence from the board. And again, I don't believe that Mark or anybody else did that on purpose because they are against personally anybody. I think it was just counseling that said, okay, don't get involved, don't make comments. I agree with that. I agree that that's what happened. But I believe that should be more spoke, discussed. Two last points. Oh, there you go, five minutes. Twelve children daycare. Being really an impact to the houses nearby, we have Veterans Park Elementary with 700-plus kids there. People who move in that area go for the school. Come on, let's be honest. Everybody has small children, and they go there. If you don't have children, your minority might not like the neighborhood because of the Veterans Park, not because of the daycare. And like I said, I've used in-home daycares. Come on, there's no noise outside. That's my opinion. It's not fact. So last point. No, no more last points. That's it. Sorry. Thank you. I'd like to ask the board, I think we've heard extensive testimony from both the applicant and the opposition. I'd like to ask the board members if they have any further questions of the applicant or of the opposition. Very good. Thank you all for your time today. We're we're I think it's it's to the point where we are going to move forward I'd like to ask the board what their pleasure is and I would entertain a motion at this point. Mr. Chair. I'd like to move that C 2014-74 see it to Nietzsche's Stovenich appeal for a conditionally permit to establish a family child care facility for up to 12 children and plan neighborhood residential R3 zone at 921 Fiddler Way be approved for the reasons recommended by the staff and subject to the five conditions recommended by the staff. Thank you, Ms. Moore. Is there a second? Second. Wait a minute. I think we need to change something. Oh, the hours. The hours of operation should be changed from 6 to 4. The hours of operation reflect 4.30 instead of 6 p.m., Mr. Emmons. We have a motion by Ms. Moore. Do we have a second? Second. Mr. Glover seconds. All in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Any opposed? Good luck, Ms. Asi. And thank you all. I want to thank you all both. And I want to thank the opposition as well as the applicant because I know this is a very passionate issue. And again, at the end of the day, we hear from both sides of the issue and with staff and we try to make a fair decision. And so we wish both sides the very best. the association as well as Ms. Ozzie, you and your daycare. I'd like to add to that that in all of these that I've heard of these 12 kid daycare centers, this one has moved me the most in favor of the applicant and I think that there's a lot that the opposition could learn about the way they behaved. Thank you. I'd like to ask if the board has any items that need to be heard at this time? If not, I'd like to remind Mr. Glover that the next meeting will be January 30, 2015. That will be a new year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Glover. And I would like to wish everybody a very happy holiday and a very happy and safe and peaceful prosperous new year. Thank you all very much.