# Board of Adjustment - September 29, 2017 > Auto-transcribed civic record · September 29, 2017 - **Permalink**: https://meetings.lexingtonky.news/meeting/4358 - **Source video**: https://lfucg.granicus.com/player/clip/4358?view_id=14&redirect=true - **Date**: 2017-09-29 - **Last revised**: September 29, 2017 - **Length**: 24,778 words - **Speakers**: Chad > ⚠️ **Auto-generated content.** Audio from the official Granicus video was auto-transcribed with OpenAI's open-source Whisper large-v3-turbo model, run locally by The Lexington Times. Structured facts were extracted with GPT-4o; the narrative summary was written by Anthropic Claude. Verbatim wording may contain errors. See [methodology](https://meetings.lexingtonky.news/about/methodology) or [report a correction](mailto:editor@lexingtonky.news). --- ## Meeting Overview The Board of Adjustment convened on September 29, 2017, at 1:30 PM in the Council Chambers at 200 East Main Street in Lexington, Kentucky, with the Chairman presiding. The board addressed two agenda items during the session, including a variance request for Jeff Graves that was ultimately denied and an informational discussion regarding a conditional use permit for Behrs & Dawgs, LLC. Throughout the meeting, the board conducted eight motions and votes on various matters before them. The board also heard from two members of the public who provided comments during the proceedings. ## Attendance The following members were present at the meeting on September 29, 2017: **Present:** • Branden Gross • Thomas Glover • Harry Clarke • Chad Needham • Joan Whitman • Jan Meyer • Raquel Carter All seven members were in attendance with no absences or late arrivals recorded. ## Votes and Decisions The board considered eight applications during the September 29, 2017 meeting, approving seven and denying one. **PLN-BOA-17-00061** [timestamp: 02:00]: Chad Needham motioned to approve a variance for Harry & Louise Bush to reduce the required side yard from 6 feet, 4 inches to 5 feet. Harry Clarke seconded the motion. The motion passed 4-3 on a roll call vote, with Branden Gross, Thomas Glover, Harry Clarke, and Chad Needham voting in favor, and Joan Whitman, Jan Meyer, and Thomas Glover voting against. The approval includes conditions requiring a minimum average side yard of 5 feet, necessary permits, and compliance with Chevy Chase Neighborhood Design Standards. **PLN-BOA-17-00068** [timestamp: 03:00]: Harry Clarke motioned to approve Brooke Loyd's variance to reduce the required side yard from 18 inches to 0 inches. Thomas Glover seconded, and the motion passed unanimously 7-0. **PLN-BOA-17-00069** [timestamp: 04:00]: Thomas Glover motioned to approve Andover Construction's variance to reduce the required front yard from 20 feet to 0 feet. Harry Clarke seconded the motion, which passed 6-1, with Branden Gross casting the sole dissenting vote. The board unanimously approved four conditional use permits: **PLN-BOA-17-00062** [timestamp: 05:00] for Tom & Cathryn Miller's home occupation with operating hours limited to 10 a.m. to 7 p.m., Monday through Saturday; **PLN-BOA-17-00063** [timestamp: 06:00] for Trinity United Methodist Church's building expansion; **PLN-BOA-17-00064** [timestamp: 07:00] for YMCA of Central Kentucky, Inc.'s picnic shelter expansion; and **PLN-BOA-17-00065** [timestamp: 08:00] for Time to Shine Car Wash, Inc.'s self-service car wash facility. **PLN-BOA-17-00046** [timestamp: 09:00]: Chad Needham's motion to approve Jeff Graves' variance to increase allowable driveway width failed unanimously 0-7, with all seven board members voting against the application. ## Public Comment Two community members addressed the board during the public comment period, both speaking about the Hope Center project. **James Brown** spoke at [timestamp: 10:00] regarding concerns about the Hope Center project. Brown expressed worries about the high concentration of emergency service agencies in the area and the challenges this concentration brings to the community. He did not elaborate on the specific nature of these challenges in his remarks. **Walter May** followed at [timestamp: 11:00] with comments also related to the Hope Center. May addressed the topic of board representation, stating that they are actively seeking someone to serve on the Hope Center board. According to May, this board position would help improve communication between the Hope Center and the community. Both speakers focused their comments on different aspects of the same project, with Brown raising concerns about the impact of emergency services concentration while May discussed governance and community engagement through board representation. ## Contested Items Two items on the agenda faced significant community opposition during the September 29, 2017 meeting. **Variance for Jeff Graves** Community members voiced strong opposition to a variance request submitted by Jeff Graves. The primary concern centered on the potential precedent that approving front yard parking would set within a historic neighborhood. Residents argued that allowing this variance could undermine the historic character of the area and open the door for similar requests that would fundamentally alter the neighborhood's appearance and integrity. The community opposition highlighted the tension between individual property owner needs and broader neighborhood preservation goals. **Conditional Use Permit for Behrs & Dawgs, LLC.** The conditional use permit application for Behrs & Dawgs, LLC. generated opposition from multiple stakeholders. Local residents raised concerns about potential noise levels that could disrupt the surrounding residential areas. Additionally, the University of Kentucky formally expressed concerns about the impact the proposed use would have on nearby residential neighborhoods. The opposition focused on quality of life issues and the compatibility of the proposed business operations with the existing residential character of the area. Both contested items reflect common themes in local government decision-making: balancing individual property rights with community standards, and ensuring new developments or changes are compatible with existing neighborhood character. The involvement of both individual residents and institutional stakeholders like the University of Kentucky demonstrates the broader community interest in these decisions and their potential long-term impacts on the area. *Note: Specific timestamps are not available for this meeting's contested items discussion.* ## Variance for Jeff Graves [timestamp: 09:00] The Board of Appeals considered case PLN-BOA-17-00046, a variance request submitted by Jeff Graves to increase the allowable driveway width from the standard 10 feet to 21 feet. Jeff Graves presented his request to the board, seeking approval for the expanded driveway width that would exceed current zoning regulations. The variance would more than double the permitted width under existing code requirements. Staff provided their analysis and recommended disapproval of the variance request. The staff determination cited non-compliance with established zoning regulations as the primary reason for the negative recommendation. The current zoning code limits driveway width to 10 feet, and staff found insufficient justification to grant the substantial increase requested. Following the presentation and staff recommendation, the Board of Appeals denied the variance request. The denial means that Jeff Graves must comply with the existing 10-foot maximum driveway width requirement under current zoning regulations. The case represents a straightforward variance denial where the applicant's request for expanded driveway dimensions did not meet the criteria necessary to justify deviation from established zoning standards. ## Conditional use permit for Behrs & Dawgs, LLC. [timestamp: 12:00] The board reviewed application PLN-BOA-17-00057, a conditional use permit request from Behrs & Dawgs, LLC for live entertainment and a variance to reduce the required setback from a residential zone. Brian Behr and Taylor Stuckey served as key speakers during the discussion of this agenda item. The applicant sought permission to operate live entertainment at their establishment while also requesting relief from standard setback requirements that typically apply when a commercial property is located adjacent to residential zoning. Staff presented their analysis of the proposal and recommended approval of the conditional use permit, subject to specific conditions. The staff report indicated that the request met the necessary criteria for approval despite the proximity to residential areas. The discussion focused on the dual nature of the request - both the conditional use permit for live entertainment activities and the variance component that would allow the business to operate with reduced setbacks from the neighboring residential zone. This type of mixed request requires careful consideration of potential impacts on surrounding residential properties, including noise concerns and other compatibility issues. The agenda item was treated as an informational discussion, allowing board members to review the details of the application and staff recommendations. No final action was taken during this meeting, suggesting the item may have been scheduled for continued review or formal voting at a subsequent meeting. The case represents a typical land use planning scenario where commercial entertainment uses must be balanced against residential neighborhood character and quality of life considerations. --- ## Decisions - **PLN-BOA-17-00061** — passed (4-3): Variance to reduce the required side yard from 6 feet, 4 inches to 5 feet for Harry & Louise Bush - **PLN-BOA-17-00068** — passed (7-0): Variance to reduce the required side yard from 18 inches to 0 inches for Brooke Loyd - **PLN-BOA-17-00069** — passed (6-1): Variance to reduce the required front yard from 20 feet to 0 feet for Andover Construction - **PLN-BOA-17-00062** — passed (7-0): Conditional use permit for a home occupation for Tom & Cathryn Miller - **PLN-BOA-17-00063** — passed (7-0): Conditional use permit to expand the existing church for Trinity United Methodist Church - **PLN-BOA-17-00064** — passed (7-0): Conditional use permit to expand the picnic shelter for YMCA of Central Kentucky, Inc. - **PLN-BOA-17-00065** — passed (7-0): Conditional use permit to establish a self-service car wash for Time to Shine Car Wash, Inc. - **PLN-BOA-17-00046** — failed (0-7): Variance to increase the allowable width of a driveway for Jeff Graves --- ## Full transcript Everybody cares their way to park on screaming for a train Something to keep them all warm This morning, I shot six holes in my freezer I think I got cabin fever Somebody sound the alarm I'd like to go where the pencil lights flow Could you meet me somewhere, Mr. Scott? Hey, old place here on Earth, where it's made. You picked a century and I picked a spot. And live without her. You better learn to let her know how you feel Just remember that you hold the power To tell her all that words can reveal You've got to show Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. We are coming into session for the September 29, 2017 Board of Adjustment meeting. I will, I've called the meeting to order. We're waiting for it to come up on the screen. And what we'll do is, the first thing I'm going to do is do the approval of the minutes those were sent out. Did the board have an opportunity to review those? And are there any requested revisions? Hearing none, then I will entertain a motion to approve. Mr. Clark moves, Mr. Glover seconds. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? None or opposed. Okay, so now I will sound the agenda, but first I'd like to make a few brief announcements. if you have a cell phone please turn that on to silent or mute you don't mind even me I forget sometimes we if you need to have discussions in the hallway what I would ask is that you go and just close the door because the rotunda echoes into the room and it's hard sometimes for the reporter to catch everything the order of general order if we have a case that is to be heard will be the staff will give its report if it is applicable and then the applicant will have an opportunity the opposition will then have its opportunity and then the applicant will have it a period for a rebuttal generally I keep the applicant in the rebuttal to 15 minutes each unless it's a very complex case if there are a number of persons in opposition what we'll try to do is we'll try to divvy up we'll find out how many people would like to speak and then we divvy up that time amongst those individuals so everyone gets a fair opportunity to come before the board we would like to say keep your comments if we could from being redundant if one neighbor or a person has already said something there's no reason to repeat that for us another thing is please try to keep your commentary from the crowd down don't shout out if you like to be recognized please raise your hand and the chair will entertain that so with all that being said I'm going to go ahead and swear in the witnesses. So if you today if you plan on speaking on any matters whether in opposition or In support, please stand and raise your right hand for me And you solemnly swell swear to tell the truth or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth Thank you, please take a seat Okay, so the first thing before I go through the, Jen, should I do any postponements, withdrawals before I read through the whole docket? Okay, so anybody here, would anyone here like to ask for a withdrawal or a postponement of any of the applications that are before us today? Please, sir. Come to the podium, announce yourself for the record, and let us know which case you're here on. chris michel with palmer engineering i'm i'm here for item d6 plmboa 17-66 hope center okay so um we have plmboa 17-66 hope center's request for a conditional use permit to construct a rehabilitation home in a professional office zone at 298 west loudon and um we're gonna have someone's asking for a withdrawal of this application and so sir once again what's your name again chris michel with Palmer Engineering. Okay Chris if you don't mind why do we need a withdrawal? In communication with the architect and we've discussed with them the composition of the building and the it we discovered that instead of conditionally say it meets a primary use for P1 the first floor will have office space and community center for the second and third floor of the building will have dwelling units which per P1 that that's allowed as a primary use and that's why we're withdrawing that conditional use permit application today okay so okay so you are no longer going to construct a rehabilitation home at that site it's going to be a it's a housing and office community center building but it's not a rehabilitation home okay is there anyone here who would like to speak on this motion to withdraw the application and what that would mean would be the application would be withdrawn from the board of adjustments we would not hear this case today all right hearing none oh sir please step forward mr brown and if you would not mind just put your name on the record for us yes sir James Brown I need to get my address no sir I don't know I don't oppose withdrawing this from today's agenda but I just wanted to share a few comments with the board in regards to any residents that received the notice and that are here that are here today to speak to it. I share the same sentiments that a lot of residents in the community that I represent have about the high concentration of agencies that provide emergency services to individuals in our city that need those services. I think when we're talking about creating safe and desirable neighborhoods I think we have to be mindful that having such a large concentration in a certain area of town brings with it a certain amount of challenges for communities so I I would just ask the board to keep that in mind when considering these applications in the future going forward I think this project in particular is not a new project I know I've been hearing about this project for the last couple of years and I think this is different from what is already at the site and it's a complement to the services that are provided from the from the Hope Center I think this is moving towards the next level of care as far as creating a sense and establishing sustainability from individuals that are moving from recovery to sustaining their stability in life. I would also say that I would hope that the Hope Center does what it can to improve the communication with the community that they currently reside in. I know there's a representative or a place for a representative from the Neighborhood Association on the Hope Center board, and I heard that it's been vacant for a while. But I think reestablishing that connection and communication with the neighborhood helps to avoid some of the misunderstanding and the miscommunication between what future projects are coming at that location. That's all I have, thank you. Thank you Mr. Brown, it's always a pleasure to see you. Yes sir, you have, okay. I'm Walter May I'm with the Hope Center and yes we are in the process of seeking someone to serve on our board Richard Stevenson who served for many years has moved out of the neighborhood we're in conversation with several people about who to replace Richard on the board so there's a Northside neighborhood Association representative on the Hope Center board and by the way I will be at the Northside neighborhood Association meeting Monday night thank you thank you Mr. May. Anybody else? Does the board have any comments before I entertain a motion? Mr. Gross, no motions necessary. Thank you. In that case, it's withdrawn. So if you're here on the Hope Center case, that case has been withdrawn. We won't be doing any more testimony on that case today. Are there any more postponements or withdrawals on today's docket? Okay, hearing none I will go through the agenda what I will do is I will call each case the applicant will stand I will ask if there's anyone in opposition if there is I would recommend if you think you guys could settle your differences to go out in the hallway and try to settle those once we move through the docket then I will hear the unopposed matters first and then we'll start then we'll start up with the disapproved and the contested matters next so the first case on the Docket is PLN BOA 17-46 Jeff Graves request for a variance to increase the liable width of a driveway from 10 feet to 21 feet in a property within the divine infill and redevelopment area in a single family residential 509 marquee avenues. Mr. Graves in attendance. Thank you, sir. You don't have to come up yet. Is there anyone in opposition to this? Thank you, sir. I know I noticed that staff has recommended disapproval, so we will have this case heard. The next case is PLN BOA 17-61. Harry and Louise Bush request a variance to reduce the required side yard from six feet to four inches, six feet, four inches to four feet in order to expand the existing residence in a single family residential neighborhood. Design character overlay zone at 221 Cochrane Road. Mr. Bush is here. Is anyone in opposition? Okay, well, you'll be the first case that we call after we get through. The next case is PLN BOA 17-68 Brook Lloyd. Request a variance to reduce the required side yard from 18 inches to 0 inches to allow construction of a deck adjacent to a swing pole in an expansion area residential zone at 116 Deer Haven Road. Is the applicant present? Thank you. Is there anyone in opposition? Okay. We'll mark this as to be heard, no opposition. The next case is PLN BOA 17-69 Andover constructions request a variance to reduce the required front yard from 20 feet to zero feet in order to allow a 16 foot wide driveway within the defined infill and redevelopment area in a planned area but a residential zone at 468 Holiday Road. Is the applicant present? Is there anyone in opposition? Thank you, sir. next case are our conditional use appeals the first one is pln boa 17-57 beers and dogs llc requests a conditional permit to allow indoor and outdoor live entertainment and dancing accessory to a cocktail lounge and a variance reduced to require a setback of such a use from residential zone from 100 feet to 30 feet within the defined infill redevelopment area in neighborhood business zone at 385 limestone south limestone applicant present thank you gentlemen anyone here in opposition okay so we do have opposition is there any reason for you guys to step out in the hallway and discuss okay then we will have your set for the opposition docket the next item is plm boa 17-62 tom and katherine miller doing business as the ruffled hen co they request a conditional use permit for a home occupation wardrobe consulting and fitting in a single family residential zone at 821 shinaway road i saw mr miller is present is there anyone in opposition all right we'll have you on the no opposition docket number three is pln boa 17-63 trinity united methodist church request a conditional use permit to expand the existing church in a planned neighborhood residential zone at 3600 taste creek road is applicant present thank you gentlemen is there anyone opposition to this okay Okay. The next item is PLN BOA 17-64, YMCA of Central Kentucky, Inc. Request a conditional use permit to expand the previously approved picnic shelter from 2,000 square feet to 3,800 square feet in the R3 portion of a property that is split zoned R3 at 2681 Old Rosebud Road. Is the applicant present? Is there anyone in opposition today? No opposition? Okay. Next item is PLN BOA 17-65, Time to Shine Car Wash, Inc. Request a traditional use permit to establish a self-service car wash in the Plain Neighborhood Center at 2320 Greg Lag Way. Applicant present? Gentlemen, is there anyone in opposition? PLN BOA 17-66 Hope Center has been withdrawn. And that is everything that is on our docket today. So the first case with no opposition was PLN BOA 17-61 Harry and Louise Bush. If the applicant would please come forward and state your name for the record. I'm Harry Bush and with me is Don Hamilton, the builder that I'm going to use. Obviously he's far smarter than I am in this endeavor. Thank you, Mr. Bush. He's the brains. Is that letter in opposition? Okay, so Mr. Bush, we have one letter or is it one? One letter in opposition. if you could give us two or three minutes to read it, pass it through, and then we'll have you. If you want to have a seat in that first row. Thank you. Thank you. All right, Mr. Bush, if you come back up to the podium. It appears that one of your neighbors is concerned about water runoff with the expansion. So how are you getting, is there anything to address whether you're going to do underground tiles or if you're just going to have regular downspouts? We'll catch the downspouts and carry them toward the front in a pipe. Okay, so you are going to catch them in a pipe and run towards the front? Yes. Okay. I had planned on the front downspouts going all the way underground to the street. It would be easy to do that for the rear left side as well, but the right side would be difficult because of the fireplace. I mean, because of the driveway. I think that was one of their concerns. So yeah, if you're able to alleviate that, that would help police with the. Which property line are they concerned about? I think it was the northern property line. I'm going to need to look at the flat. Yeah. Well, that's just an issue I just want to bring to your attention. Does anyone from the board have any questions? But we could catch them on both sides. Yeah. What was the question? I was asking if anyone from the board wanted to discuss this application. I had a question, probably better directed to staff. The recommendation from staff is to partially approve this application, but only to five feet instead of six feet forward. I read the report, the staff report, but I'm not sure I understand it. The existing residence is built with a five-foot setback, so we were recommending to keep that existing setback rather than to encroach one foot further towards the property line. Do you encroach on what? The building, as I understand it, has a five-foot setback approximately. From the side yard. Yeah, and that's grandfathered in. Since then, they changed that to an eight-foot setback, side setback. so in order to continue the line of the house going back I'm requesting that three foot but I'm also requesting an additional foot which would put me still four feet off the side and that four feet I'm going back there's a masonry wall between me and my neighbor and it's you know, hardly viewable from the street. And that's why, you know, I didn't think it would maybe be objectable to go ahead and get the other foot. Are you talking about the north side or the south side of the, well, the northeast side of the property? If you can put the, if you could put something on overhead, that'll help because I've. Yeah, it does. Where? No, it's supposed to, but I don't see it. Okay, now we're getting there. Okay. That's the same one we've got. Right. Okay. If you look at the property and you see the drive coming in, where we're asking for the additional is on the other side, opposite the drive. So it's on the southwest side, basically? Yes, I think so. Okay. Yes. I don't think I answered your question before very clearly, and I can maybe elaborate a little bit. The existing house has a five-foot setback. Typically, the requirement for this zone would be an 8-foot setback. Since the house with the new addition is going to be exceeding 50 feet in depth, that adds extra to the setback. So the required setback, and additionally to that, there's a provision for extending an existing setback without having to comply with the 8 feet. So based on that and the additional, because it's going further back than 50 feet, the requirement for this addition would be 6 feet 4 inches. And they've requested to go down to four feet, but our recommendation is to keep it at five to maintain the existing setback. I don't know if that made it clear or worse. Well, is the drawing that we're looking at, is that the applicant's drawing or is it the staff recommendation? That's the applicant's proposal. So how does the staff recommendation change that drawing? The new addition, which is the larger portion of the main structure there, going towards the rear of the property, juts out one foot further towards the side property line. If, with staff's recommendation, that line would continue from the existing structure straight back. I heard most of that, but you're saying that with the staff's recommendation, that southwest side of the building would continue on to the new structure? Correct. So there'll be one continuous line from the existing structure and would be picked up by the proposed new structure. Is that right? Correct. Okay. So I'd like to ask, why is it necessary to extend that beyond what the original structure is? Why does it need to be wider than the existing structure? Are we talking about depth or width? Width. In other words, it's a five foot grandfathered in, is it not? Right. Right. The only answer I give you, it's not a necessity, but if you've got a 10-foot room, you always wanted it to be an 11-foot room. 12 inches or one foot in a room is a lot. And, you know, that's what we want because of the rear office. So it would be almost nine feet long, wide instead of eight. and also the bedroom it gives us additional area there so you know that's why we could live without it sure but I want my foot again to staff what's the just a question to staff is what's what's wrong with the six foot four inches setback is that I mean what's wrong with granting what they're asking rather than seeking a compromise. What's the harm done by giving them what they want? I understand very much the difference in room sizes and how that can make a big difference in the interior of a room. so I'm sympathetic to the applicant we're not opposed to reducing it to four feet part of our challenge is the uncertainty of not knowing if the adjoining property owners are going to be here to have issues so that's why we thought it was safer to extend the line at five foot setback there is a bit of a grade along that edge so that was another more of a minor concern is how they're to handle that grade um i know it is just a foot like i said we're not opposed to a reduction in to four feet i don't think the adjoining property owners here to express any concerns about it okay thank you in looking at this my opinion i think sits with the staff as well i would like to see it on the same plane going back I think that would look the best and is the way that should read from the street well mr. Glover currently the conditions are five foot well again make sure I I understand the applicants requesting 64 inches to four feet, and the staff is recommending five feet. Is that right? So the current setback is six four. No? The current setback is five feet, but with the new addition, the house will be longer than 50 feet. The new addition is not grandfathered in, yeah. So that triggers the requirement for one extra inch for every foot beyond 50. So that's an extra 12 inches, or 14 inches that are required. And that is where the six feet four comes in. Every foot in depth requires an inch more in width setback, is that what you said? Yes. I thought that's where. I think that would only be on the portion over 50 feet. Correct. So you'd only have to set in the 14 foot beyond 50 feet to meet the code. To 6'4", right. So, yeah, we would prefer to keep that in a straight line. But if the depth of the house goes beyond 50 foot, for every foot beyond that, you have to set the rest of it in one inch. for 14 foot beyond that, then 14 foot of the back portion of the addition would be set in 14 inches. That 12 foot would be set in 14 inches. What did he say? Yeah. So, we would like it to carry straight through. You'd like to carry the line straight through? Are you still saying we would have to set in beyond the 14? Our recommendation is that the whole line would be at five feet to continue the existing line as is and the six feet four inches would not be required. But our understanding is that you are asking for four feet the whole way. That's where the difference is between staff's recommendation as it is and- Correct, they're requesting what's shown on the plan. Correct. You're requesting the plan be modified by having the setback of 12 inches so essentially the entire house has the same linear face. Correct, that was- On that southwest side. On that southwest side. Okay. All right. So, anyone else have any more comments? Does anyone want to request a modification of the conditions? Well, is the applicant agreeable to a modification of the conditions to the staff's recommendation? Absolutely. I mean, I have no choice. I want to build, you know, I want the 12 entries and if I can't get it, I understand that. I think it would be the staff's conditions would be changed from five feet to four feet, which is what that bill wants. Which is the setback off the property line for the structure. They said they basically don't have a problem with the forefoot without a neighbor here to disagree, and I think there's no issue with catching the downspouts to make sure we don't run any. I thought I turned that off. I'm sorry. And that's what I'm sympathetic to. nobody objects nobody object that's alarm to remind me to pick up my grandson but nevertheless you know if there's no disagreement on that and and the only real concern is drainage it's really simply fixed by catching the downspouts down that side carrying them to the front so we end up with a situation we're just penalizing there's there's already a large uh brick wall going down through there which creates a screen to the property anyhow so at this point we're just kind of penalizing them for no reason in my opinion respectfully yeah and I understand the need for uniformity I mean I do yeah and I'm sympathetic to that well I think mr. Needham had an objection to that I think he did yeah so so if you wanted to make it based upon give them the variance as they have it drawn just with the addition that they carry the downspouts to the front of the house yeah that I think that would be a good option I think so too Well, I just must say I would not vote for the extension there. I would vote for maintaining what the staff has recommended, maintaining a five-foot variance all the way down the new addition. I don't have a problem as long as you can catch the water. You know, you're going to be creating more water with more roof line and the like, but I'm sympathetic, and as long as you can catch the water and do it in a way that you can please the neighbor, I think it would be beneficial for you to read your neighbor's letter, or you may already have had a conversation with that neighbor or on either side, but that would be my suggestion. Just catch the water. to take care of what you run on. I think one way to test it, I guess, would be to take a vote on the original application, see if it works. If it doesn't, we can come back and try. Real quickly, for the record, assuming that the board approves these three conditions, your application with the three conditions as set forth in the report, would you be agreeable to those conditions? And those conditions are it's five foot rather than the four foot you would like. Yes, thank you. Okay, so they have agreed that they will agree to the conditions as set forth in the report. The chair will entertain a motion from somebody on something. I move that we approve PLNBOA 17-61 Harry and Louise Bush's request for a variance to reduce the required side yard from six feet, four inches to four feet in order to expand the existing residence in a single family residential R1C neighborhood design character overlay ND-1 zone at 221 Cochran Road. Based on staff's recommendations, and subject to the three conditions outlined by staff. At a point of order, just to be clear, the applicant's request and the conditions are at odds with each other, just so we understand. Okay. Does that mean we're changing condition one on the side? What we have is a motion on the floor to approve four feet. If it were to not be successful, we could then have a second motion, I guess, on five. No? Well, but the application. That's what I meant, five feet. Sorry, I said that backwards. the motion made the most complicated unopposed matter thank you mr glover yeah you're welcome mr chair i apologize for interrupting but the motion the motion was to four feet the condition number one states five feet we have to reconcile that inconsistency somehow okay so the motion is for four feet the motion is for is for staff to recommend the approval of a variance to five feet okay well staff has recommended that's right that's the motion I'm the motion so Chad's making we agree with the staff's recommendation That's correct. Of five feet. That's my motion. I have a first for Mr. Needham to agree to the recommendations of five feet. Do I have a second? Second. I have a second for Mr. Clark. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? I'm opposing because of the five feet. Okay, so Mr. Glover, Ms. Meyer, we got three, so we're tied. You said aye? Yes. Okay, then we have, sorry, four have voted for aye. So please, if you voted aye, please say it again for the record. Aye. Aye. Those opposed? Aye. So we have four to three. Your application has been approved with the five-foot setback. Okay, so no four-foot, five-foot. Great. Recondition one. Okay, we'll take care of that, Tammy. Yeah. Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate it. Good luck with your project. Thank you. So if you were a nay vote, please raise your hand for Tammy to take a record. Nay. Nay. Nay. Joan. Joan, you were nay. Nay. You were nay. We are losing it. Okay, I swear we are normally more put together than this. This is not how these meetings are normally run. Okay, the next matter with no opposition is PLM BOA 17-JAS 68, Brooke Lloyd. Is the applicant present? Thank you, ma'am. Please come forward and state your name for the record. Staff has recommended approval for your swimming pool, and they've recommended two conditions. Have you seen those conditions in the report? Yes, I have read it. Okay. My name's Brooke Lloyd, if you want me to say it. Pardon? I didn't say my name yet. Oh, I'm sorry. On the record. Yes. I did read it, yes. Oh, we'll put your name on the record. Brooke Lloyd? Brooke Lloyd. Okay. And you're agreeable to the two conditions? One is the deck shall be constructed in accordance? Okay. I just wanted to reread them, but yes, I am. Okay. Is there anyone who wants to discuss this? All right. Thank you. Hearing none, I will entertain a motion. I will move for approval of BOA 1768, Brook Lloyd requesting a variance to reduce the required side yard from 18 inches to 0 inches to allow construction of a deck adjacent to a swimming pool in an expansion area residential at 1169 Deer Haven Lane, subject to the two recommendations, the following, the conditions that are listed, one and two. Second. I've got a first for Mr. Clark. I have a second for Mr. Glover. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? There are none opposed. Thank you, ma'am. Good luck with your project. I do have one question. So when I go get the deck permit, how will they know that I got the variance? Because I upload the picture onto that site. Do I need to upload? they will contact us if if they need information like confirmation or anything okay so just tell them that I tell them that you have a variance yes all right thank you the next item is PLN BOA 1769 Andover Construction the applicant is present please come forward and state your name into the record Mike Hall. Thank you Mr. Hall. The staff has recommended approval of your variants. They've recommended three conditions. Have you read those conditions? Yes I have. Are you in approval those conditions? I do not believe so. Condition one that the driveway the plot I turned in or the site plan I turned in I'm requesting to have a 16 I'm requesting the 16 foot driveway to extend to the curb cut. Okay, well here's what I will do then if you don't mind. I will, should we have him take a seat and then we'll have the other unopposed items? I think it's just a question of interpretation of the staff report. Bullet point number three on the staff report is unclear to me and I think if we clear that up, that'll clear up the question. So. They asked for a variance to reduce the required front yard all the way to zero feet to allow a 16-foot wide driveway all the way from the street to the garage. We're recommending that that front yard only be reduced to 15 feet, so you'd have a 10-foot wide driveway all the way approximately to 15 feet, And then it could broaden out to be wider at the driveway. And the reason we recommended that 15 foot level was to allow them in a sufficient width at the garage to have two parking spaces basically just outside the garage. So there is a significant difference in what we're recommending versus what they've applied for. I'm trying to visualize it and I see the application and I'm familiar with the house actually. I used to live on holiday. we put the um plan up on the uh screen and maybe and maybe on that plan could the staff show us visually what you're recommending for that driveway put something on the you know some i think what we're and i think what we're interested in is if the staff's recommending a holding to the ten foot driveway, how far back would that ten foot driveway extend before they could flare it out to the two car garage? 15 feet. So. We discussed this with traffic engineering and I think that what we agreed was that at the 15 mark they could be at their 16. So it would start flaring prior to the 15 foot setback. And at 15 they would be permitted to have the 16 foot width driveway. I heard part of that, I'm sorry, it's either the microphone or something. But I heard Mr. Clark say that the 10 foot driveway would extend back to the 15 foot setback from the street. Am I hearing that correctly? The 16 foot portion of the driveway could start at 15. wouldn't necessarily be a hard right angle or anything there it would be able to flare and we would be able to allow them to start the flare prior to the 15 feet at 15 they would be permitted to have the full 16 foot width so it would be 10 from the driveway or from the from the street back to where it started flaring and then by the time it hit 15 it would it could be at the 16 foot width. And that's a question. Where does it start flaring? Could that be shown visually on this? Since you said it, I sketched it online. This is what I'm assuming. You're talking about the black line that I drew on this plan, which I'm not in agreement with, but we can talk about that. Yeah, that's kind of that 90 degree angle that we were thinking would also not be ideal. I'll just sketch out real quick what we. Our recommendation is for more of a wide out driveway. And what's the opposition to a two car driveway? Can I speak? I'm asking staff. Yeah. This project is in the infill and redevelopment area, which does have a ten foot maximum width on the driveway. That's a pretty common problem that we've been having recently. It's pretty strictly limited to 10 feet. You can't really, the way we vary it is by varying the front yard rather than the width of the driveway. And parking is also not permitted in the front yard in the infill and redevelopment area. So it's kind of a combination of those two things being kind of hard line items, I guess. The staff report mentions that there are driveways of various widths in the neighborhood, and I'm pretty familiar with the neighborhood, and there are, certainly. Do any of them in the neighborhood, are there any 16-foot driveways in the neighborhood? There are. How many? I can't be certain of that. On their side of the street, there are several, I think, and then across the street, I think there are fewer. mostly ten foot wide driveways. It's a pretty wide mix. So ten foot is, some of them are ten feet, some of them are as wide as 16 feet. So 16 feet wouldn't be out of character with the neighborhood, is what I'm hearing. Correct. we've been talking this whole time so if you want to explain to us your project and also explain to us why you need the 16 foot driveway versus the 10 foot driveway i see in front of me thanks sorry I've been anxious to chomping up the bits and speak about it a little bit. So this is my fourth. I'm a new home builder. We purchased a vacant lot there at this address and built the house at 468 Holiday and built this home. And this is my fourth infill home in 12 months that I've built and closed. And I think that's an important part of the city's plan for not expanding the service boundary. and this is the only one typically we've got a detached garage scenario in a neighborhood full of you know really uh you know older homes with a detached garage in the back when we bought this home we always ride the neighborhood drive through look at everything try to build something that's in character something that's contributing to the neighborhood and the architecture of the neighborhood we bought this home it was it was really apparent that not only would there are majority of the garages on holiday are front-loading garages and i would say a good portion of the driveways i know of three on on the 400 block here that we have that are 16 foot driveways and that's that's my block obviously so we thought it appropriate to put a two-car garage on the front of the home and it's not detached in the back that would have eaten my entire you know backyard so that's how we ended up here so we've we built the house and we went to get approval talk to planning they said this was part of the infill which I guess my point is I really respect the infill zone I think it's a big part of what I do and what the city is you know moving towards if you're not gonna have you know new construction and spreading out into your farmland that support you're gonna have more of these infills and you're gonna have these challenges and I just think that there's so much precedence on holiday that we could, you know, we should really give this consideration. So I understand. I'm sorry. This might be the dumbest question yet asked, but has the house been built? The house has been built. Okay, the house has been built. Do we have a photo of that? I do not have a photo on me, no. Because as I look in Google Maps, I don't see a blank lot. So you have a house but no driveway? The driveway is in, but it's 10 feet. I have a permit to put the driveway in at 10 feet. So that's what I did. I'm trying to sell the house. So I've got open houses. I've got things scheduled. I followed what I believe to have current permissions to do and poured it in. But I'm going to change the driveway. So can I ask why we need a 16-foot driveway connecting to the street? Why is that important? Why is it important? Well, it's, I think it's, yeah, it's for, it's really strange to have the house. I built a nice new house, a great caliber house. and to have kind of inappropriate or very impractical parking and pulling around, driving around. I mean, several of the driveways on holiday are one-car garages with 16-foot apron curb cuts. The curb cut I had, I believe, was 12 or 14 feet, but obviously that's not applicable to this. Well, let me ask this. I think I can answer Mr. Clark's question, because I was thinking the same thing myself. If it's a two-car garage and you have a one-car driveway, both of the cars, according to that drawing that we see displayed, are going to have to turn at some point as they're backing up to back out onto the street. So I can understand the logistical problem of that. But as far as the aesthetic issue of having a 16-foot driveway, I kind of agree with the staff on that. I think, again, I think it's really appropriate for infill to require a 10-foot driveway when you have a neighborhood with detached garages in the rear of the home. I think, again, there's precedence here, and I think it's a challenge that should be taken up to have a 16-foot-wide driveway to go to this garage. Let me ask you this. You designed the house. You got your permits. you were told you're allowed to have a 10-foot wide driveway wouldn't have been more appropriate to come before us at that time yes you can make design changes if you needed to rather than build the house and then say well because i built this house you've got to give me this driveway so it complies with what i built that's my concern i have is that it seems to me we should have this should have been brought before us prior to construction okay Okay. Well, I understand. So when I purchased the home, and this is, I guess, my excuse, if you will, I've got to get these things started. I've got to get it built. I did move forward with the thought that I would always be here and that the absolute worst thing that would happen to me would be a two-car driveway back to a certain point with one car curb cut. Can I ask how many, maybe I ask the staff, how many houses on that street have a two-car garage? Is there any way of knowing that? I'm not certain. There are a few for sure. It's not totally uncommon, I would say. Okay. um so I'm what I'm wondering why we have a rule that says we have to have 10 foot driveways if indeed we're that's the zoning ordinance what the zoning ordinance says that I understand that yeah so why is that if if there's a reason not not to have a 10 foot driveway and we approve 16-foot driveway then what precedent are we setting if the zoning says 10 foot I can answer that to a limited extent I think very generally speaking the intent of restricting the driveway width within the infill and redevelopment area was because again in general most of the older neighborhoods within the infill and redevelopment area have narrow driveways. Partly as the applicants explain, often they lead to rear detached garages, so you don't need anything wider at the front. So it's a maintain the character of the neighborhood kind of question. So I think that's really the critical question for this particular application is kind of a survey of the character of this particular neighborhood. And we did somewhat of that, and it's a mixed bag. It's not clear-cut one way or the other. And I know you like to have a specific number. We didn't go house by house, block by block, and do a count, but it is a mixed bag. It's not definitely one character or the other. Well, I want to be fair to the builder, but also want to maintain the priorities that we are assigned. So I have some questions both ways, frankly. I think my opinion is if you knew it going in, I probably would have designed it based on that as opposed to coming back at the other side here and adjusting. So I'd probably stick with what I voted on the five-inch setback to keep it all in line, that we stay with the character of the neighborhood and stay with the 10-foot curb cut and drive. Are there any other discussion points anyone wants to bring up or ask the applicant? Just a point of clarification on the drawing to staff, I think. The staff drawing shows a flare on both sides of the driveway. He wouldn't have to do that, I presume. He could. No, it would be up to the applicant's discretion. That was just sort of what we envisioned, but we certainly aren't the designer in this situation at all. Sure. yeah i mean he could flare it on one side only and yeah i'm just i i was i'm i'm just interested in if you're going to park two cars side by side uh somebody's going to have to turn the wheel as as they back out to get to the street i'm familiar with the neighborhood most of the houses on the neighborhood have have one car garages unless they're more modern but even those you know something the their the driveway widths are all over the board so from 16 to 10. Yeah I mean there's also you know semi-circle driveways as well with two curb cuts I mean it's all over the map there so I mean I understand that side of it too. And the added if I may speak I'm sorry the the added garages you don't see any garages even in the older neighborhoods these garages in the rear of the home have been added all the added garages on holiday a majority of them have come to the front of the house because there's no room in the back it backs up to the out of our country club and it's an inappropriate space so that but there are several two-car garages in the front of the homes and on the street so to your point yeah could I say something please please yeah if they if there are other 16 foot driveways then this would still be in character with the neighborhood I would find it more out of character to have an odd driveway in a garage that was not completely usable as designed if you have a two-car garage you want both cars to be able to use it freely and after the fact it'll look like you kind of made do you you know of course I do think I agree that you probably should have done this in the beginning but at the end it'll always look like the house that had to make do with the driveway in the garage after the fact and I think that that would stick out a little more in the neighborhood than just being a driveway in a garage that's fully usable the way it's designed would it be helpful if I showed some slides of driveways if you would like and then I like to wrap up and have a vote as we have a full docket thank you Maybe if you turn it sideways there. So these are just three examples that I've turned in here. This is a one-car garage. It apparently had an original concrete driveway. It's had an asphalt driveway added on. This is on the 400. This is 420 Holiday Road. So this is down the street from the house that we're applying to widen the driveway. This would be 412, a neighboring house. This is a more modern house here that's got a two-car, obviously it's been renovated it's in the infill area but it's it's got a two-car garage going to an attached or going to a 16 foot driveway one more this is on the 300 block and I actually believe that as you go down there are more of these because the you know the 100 blocker they're kind of nicer as they go down so this is just another example of a 16 foot driveway on the street there And these are just a few that I pulled off from Google Earth. And I'll apologize for not doing this process up front and letting that get ahead of myself. I assure you it wasn't out of disrespect. I'm on the historic board in Woodford County where I live. And I don't ever want you guys to feel like I did something to be spiteful or to come and ask for forgiveness. I'm going to abide by the rules as they're given if this process doesn't work. but I definitely think that it should be considered, again, not just for this project, but for the future of infill. And, you know, these things have to be taken into consideration, in my opinion. I mean, I see both ways now. I would like to see a picture of this house, but we're not going to get that, I guess. No. Okay. I probably have one on my phone, but I don't know if you want to go that far. Well, then my instinct says because we're all over the map in this neighborhood, I would probably think that it might be okay at this point to just grant this. But again, I'm kind of waffling up here as this information changes. This is an older neighborhood, and this was established when we didn't have so many cars. So now we have two cars, and the need has changed, and the times have changed. But I'm not a fan of garages that front on the street, but I think in this case I can grant you an application. Any other comments? Can we move to a vote? I will entertain a motion. I'll be glad to craft the motion. But do we need to, well, you need to craft in such a way. Yes. Thank you, sir. I move that we approve PLN BOA 17-69 Andover Construction's request for a variance to reduce the required front yard from 20 feet to zero feet in order to allow a 16-foot driveway of the property within the defined infill and redevelopment area in a planned neighborhood residential zone at 468 Holiday Road. based on our discussions here, the testimony given, subject to the two recommendations, or based upon the two recommendations of Staff A and B, without taking into account Recommendation C, and subject to the three recommendations, I'm sorry, the three conditions except that strike everything in the first condition after the word variance. Thank you, Mr. Glover. Ms. Jones, our legal counsel, I think wants to weigh in. I'm okay with that, except in terms of the reasons where you're basing the approval on the hearing today, I would recommend that you strike out the words in A, somewhat lesser, and then I think that it'll be okay. You're not granting the lesser. I agree with that. So the first staff recommendation would read, granting the variant should not adversely affect the public health, safety, or welfare. Okay, before we have a second, we have a first by Mr. Glover. You understand the condition number one will now be revised to read, the driveway shall be paved in compliance with the approved variants, period. Yes, sir. Are you now in agreement with all the conditions? Yes, sir. Okay. Do I have a second? Second. Mr. Clark seconds. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed, aye. One opposed, everyone else approves. Good luck with your project. Thank you. The next item on our agenda is PLM BOA 1762, Tom and Catherine Miller doing business as the Ruffield Henn Co. Mr. Miller I'm hoping that this non-opposed application will move more smoothly than the last two. Mr. Chair we do have a number of letters in support and I believe one in opposition to distribute to you all. Well Mr. Miller I stand corrected if you would have a seat and then I'll have you introduce yourself and we'll read these letters and then we'll we'll hear it. Yeah we're just gonna look at these letters real fast. Oh, okay, thank you. Thank you. Okay, I think we're ready for you. Thank you. You're welcome. Please introduce yourselves for the record. I'm Tom Miller. And I'm Kathy Miller. Nice to see you again. The staff has recommended approval, and they have listed four recommendations for conditions. Have you read those conditions? We have and agree to them. And they're agreement of the conditions. Give us a couple seconds. Mr. Clark, I believe, has the last letter, but does anyone else have any questions for the applicant? Is there anything you want to say to us? I thought we need to. I like your answer. We had someone who wanted to switch places with us. Well, hearing no discussion points, the chair will entertain a motion. Mr. Chair, I move we approve PLN BOA 17-62, Tom and Catherine Miller, DBA, the Ruffled Hen Company's requests for a conditional use permit for a home occupation, wardrobe consultation and fitting in a single-family residential R1B zone at 821 Shinnery Road for the reasons recommended by staff and subject to the four conditions. Thank you, Ms. Myers. Do we have a second? Second. I have a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? Thank you. Good luck. Thank you. We would like to thank the staff. You would think after 40 years, Braxton Law could fill out an application and file it. But if it weren't for Autumn, we wouldn't be here today, so thank you. And you might want to get these letters of support. They might be future customers for you because several of them said they hadn't been invited, but they had no opposition. I know. Thank you all very much. Thank you. And Tammy, the second was Ms. Whitman. It's just for the record. The next case we have is PLNBOA 1763, Trinity United Methodist Church. is the applicant present please come forward sir and put your name on the record for us mr chairman i'm chris howard with carmen representing trinity hill thank you and the staff has recommended approval they have also recommended five conditions have you had a chance to read those i have are you in approval of those i am thank you sir Does anyone from the board have any questions or would like to make any comments? Hearing none, then the chair will entertain a motion. Mr. Chair, I move that we approve BOA 1762. I'm sorry, I'm the wrong one. BOA 1763. Turn it to United Methodist Church. Requesting a conditional use permit to expand the existing church planned neighborhood residential zone at 3600 Tates Creek Road, based on the recommendation of the staff of the five conditions. Thank you, Mr. Clark with the first. Do I have a second? Second. Mr. Glover seconds. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? No one's opposed. Thank you, sir. Good luck with your project. Thank you. The next item on the agenda is PLN BOA 1764 YMCA of Central Kentucky. Is the applicant please come forward and put yourselves on the record? David Martorano. I'm Thomas Todd from Kincaid and Stills. I represent the YMCA. Thank you, gentlemen. The staff has recommended approval. They have set forth five conditions. Have you had an opportunity to read those? Yes. And are you in agreement with those? Yes. Thank you. Does anyone on the board have any questions or comments for the applicant? Hearing none, the chair will entertain a motion. Mr. Chair, I move we approve BOA 17-day 64 YMC of Central Kentucky's request for a conditional use permit to expand the previously approved picnic shelter from 2,000 square feet to 3,800 square feet in the R3 zone of a property that is split zoned, planned neighborhood residential R3, professional office P1 at 2681 Old Rosbud Road for the reasons recommended by staff and subject to the five conditions. Thank you, Mr. Glover. Do I have a second? Second. Mr. Needham seconds. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? No one is opposed. Thank you gentlemen. Good luck with your project. Thank you. I show the next unopposed matter being PLM VOA 1765, Time to Shine Car Wash, Inc. Would the applicant please come forward and put your names on the record? yes my name is Darren Croucher I'm with Thorbred engineering and we're representing Mike Roper and Tom Deshawn today and I'm Jeremy Duncan do you have a last name Jeremy Duncan thank you sir the staff has recommended approval and they have recommended six conditions has have you and your client reviewed those yes sir we have and are you are they and you approval approve of those thank you Does anyone from the board have any questions or would like to make any comments at this time? Hearing none, the chair will entertain a motion. I move that we approve PLN BOA 17-65 Time to Shine Car Wash Inc.'s request for a conditional use permit to establish a self-service car wash in a planned shopping center B6P zone at 2320 Gray Lag Way based on staff's two reasons and the six conditions outlined by staff. Thank you, Mr. Needham. Do I have a second? I'll give that to Mr. Clark. Mr. Clark seconds. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? No one is opposed. Thank you, gentlemen, and good luck with the project. Yes, sir. I believe we have now heard all of the unopposed items on the docket today, which brings us back to the first variance appeal, which will be PLN BOA 17-46, Jeff Graves. In this instance, the staff has recommended disapproval, so I would like to hear from the staff first, and then Mr. Graves, I'll give you an opportunity to take your presentation. Thank you. Thank you. within the defined infill and redevelopment area. This is a picture of the property as it is currently with the expanded parking. This was done without a permit and the applicant is seeking an after-the-fact variance. Staff has recommended disapproval of this because the property is located in the infill and redevelopment area very close to UK's campus. This is the end of Marquis Drive which is a dead end that abuts the UK baseball fields. Given the nature of this neighborhood it's been pretty contentious throughout the years regarding front yard parking just given the nature of the residential neighborhood abutting the student housing and rental properties. The applicant has requested this additional parking in order to care for his mother who is elderly and handicapped and to allow parking for medical personnel who may be coming in to help and he does plan on constructing a handicap for handicapped ramp as well staff believes that with the allowable 10-foot driveway and the extensive paved area in the back which there should be sufficient room for parking and a ramp to be added we have drawn up a few options typical ADA accessible ramp has one foot of length for every inch of slope so the applicant in order to get up the two steps to his residence would need to have at least a 12-foot ramp. You can see in the first drawing shows what is existing. I didn't include all the pavement behind the house. It just, to the back of the driveway, there is more pavement back there. And the red block represents a 2015 F-150, I believe, which is not, I don't think what the occupant has, but they do have a truck just for scale to show that. Some of the Options that we just came up with quickly were for an L-shaped ramp that could go into the driveway, as well as just a straight ramp, and you see an option B there. Just sort of providing some options that show that there are ways that the applicant could provide handicap accessibility on this site and have plenty of room to maneuver to get his mother in and out of a vehicle in that driveway. There are also an application through traffic that the applicant could apply for a handicap parking space on the street. I'm not sure if the applicant has looked into that at this time. I guess that is kind of where we are. Does anybody have any questions for staff at this time? Well, we may have questions in the future. Oh, wait. Mr. Glover. I do have a question. Are there any other homes in this area that have 21-foot driveways or parking areas in front of the house? Not in the immediate vicinity. There is a property across the street that has a parking pad, which actually was permitted. It had been permitted as a gravel pad a number of years ago, and they were permitted to pave that fairly recently, but since it was an existing pad. Did that other property come through us, the board? No. Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Graves, if you would wait one second for us, we have a stack full of emails for us to look through, and then we'll have you come up. Thank you. I also have things I've got signed from people who are supporting it. that they didn't have. Okay. Well, in that case, Mr. Graves, come on up. Put your name on the record. My name is Jeffrey Graves. Thank you. And if you want to hand those letters to staff. Yes. I made a bunch of copies because I don't know how many people would need them. If you could hand, how many copies do you have? There's 22 people. I only have, it's on two pages. Okay. see what else i got here well in that case then the staff will put one in record and then we'll pass the other one down for us if you can give us five minutes let's review all this stuff and then we'll have you give your presentation i had one more thing i might tell you i sent an email out and responded to all those people with their questions because a lot of people seem confused about what we were actually doing because i'm not really requesting 21 feet i'm only request requesting a five foot variance. Okay. Well, if you could, anything you want to give to the staff for the record, they'll pass it over to us. Mr. Glover has recommended a recess given the number that we have. So let's take a five minute recess. welcome back we are back in session we have Jeff Graves has put himself on the record before mr. Graves you start is there anyone here that's going to want to speak in opposition today we have several persons in opposition so what I'm going to do mr. Graves is I will allow allocate you 15 minutes to give your presentation and then I will have the opposition and then you'll have an opportunity but and then we'll have our discussions and vote so please proceed Thank you. I'm doing this for a mother. Excuse me. She's 89 years old with dementia. I was born in this house 65 years ago, and I've lived in it three times since then. I doubt there's anybody else in the neighborhood who knows the history of this area and this town more than me. And it's not just about the neighborhood. When I came in, I was reminded I worked with Mayor Amato when I was a teenager. I parked Judge Stevens' car. I've worked in this town my entire life. I've worked for two presidents, two vice presidents of the United States. Governors, senators, congressmen, Sandra Day O'Connor, different people. I'm not saying that because I'm not rich, but in my work I was able to do things. And I didn't think when I was a little boy, raised, brought in this town, that I would all of a sudden be brought for people and things and clients that I've had. My mom went through a horrible thing where she was put away in another state in a home. She was dying. And I took all my savings. to get her out back here. This was her home. And some of her siblings have gone through everything, a lot of things she's had. We don't know what's left. They won't give us the information. The only thing to do was to be able to get her out of a place. She was at morning point here, and so I brought her home to where I was born. anyway I'm sorry my dad said take care of your mother when he died when we got there at a morning point she had several accidents and stuff I've got so many photos and stuff there I don't know how to get them all out right now but this is what we were facing I don't know, put it on the screen what was out front it was about a two foot of rock and stuff that's been there for years and she almost fell once it was a gravel driveway never been changed i was full of potholes and whatever it's horrible and i couldn't get her out the night one time to go to the hospital for tripping and falling one falls all it'll take and she won't be with me if you would if you want you could hand and they'll put each photo up on the screen you can tell us to speak into the mic so we can hear you let me adjust the lighting so we can see each photo thank you yeah um okay yeah that's not very good i tell you i think we'll go with some of the images i've got i think they'll show up better these aren't really good i mean the pictures look good but that thing doesn't project them very well um why don't we show um 509 marquee before it's got the it's got all the pictures that were before we did anything it says 509 marquee before yeah there we go um that's a city picture there the first one uh that he you've got the thing on and uh yeah that's kind of it was kind of like that it was getting kind of run down because my other sibling who's supposed to be taking care of the place didn't and so everything's growing up around it um let's see can we go back or can we go forward can you just flip is there a little thing down there flip okay there it was when right before uh my mom moved in It was pretty overgrown. You can go to the next one. I'm trying to get to find. There's kind of the drive. Go to the next. That's the back of the house. You can see all the gravel back there. In the back, there was gravel over the whole yard. People that were there had been parking there, but they had very small vehicles, probably under 7 foot wide. They were little Ford S10 trucks and stuff like that. Let's see. We'll go to the next one. One more over. I'm not sure what's on there because I can't look at them on the screen. Just keep going, sir. That was kind of the front yard. There was no trees taken down or anything like that. You can see how it's a lot wider at the front and when you get back, it's very small. There's only a 7 foot 10 inch, and I've got it on those things too. the side of the chimney over to the edge of the concrete at the property line. There's only six foot eleven inches to actually really get through there with a car. I do have a truck. It's all I've got here right now. I had another car but I came here from North Dakota after living here in my life and went up there. came back. My mom called me and said, help me. And a truck can't get through there. No kind of full-side truck. If you take the mirrors off and you have somebody kind of guiding you, you might have that much room on each side. It was never really meant probably to have cars like that go back through there. The original garage was very small and right behind the back door. We can't get in and out the back door at all. There's no way to do a ramp or anything back there. and so going through that we've been renovating the house doing everything a lot of the work myself I called a gentleman that was working for the city we got a file folder there that has his city credentials I mean he's doing stuff for the city zkb company and he was across the street they put in a new sewer line on the street working and I saw his truck and I said I saw a concrete on there I said, hey, you do concrete? He goes, yeah. He gave me a bid. I said, I need it big enough for two cars. And I've been all around the neighborhood, and there's, I don't know, 50 or more driveways that are 20 foot wide and stuff. I don't know the zoning of each house and stuff. And there's people parking in front and whatever, so I didn't think anything of it. He was a professional in every one I've got before. Always got permits, plumbers or people hooking onto the sewer. We didn't have any kind of written agreement or anything. He said, I can't get to you until next year because I've got so much work. So we came in March. I said, wait until I get the sewer in because it has to go underground before I put anything on it. He came and just started doing the work. We decreased everything in the backyard down because I couldn't get a vehicle back there. No students have ever lived in this house except upstairs in inefficiency. agency. It's always been one. The last gentleman was there for 20 years, lived downstairs with maybe a roommate. So it's not for student parking. And I mean, all kinds of letters and stuff I got were really offending, saying I was going to maybe sell parking in the front yard and do a ball games or something. I mean, crazy stuff. Nobody's come down. I sent a letter to each person who responded. I asked them to contact me. Only one person called me on the phone and I was trying to explain it to them. You can't imagine it unless you really see it. Anyway, nobody has bothered to call me back or come to the house to see it. One of the people that sent me two letters that you've got there, I've got a file. I drove by their house because they had their address on there. They were parking in front of their own house, What they were saying, complaining on me that there was going to be parking there. Not really. I only have one vehicle. Anyway, the gentleman did the work, and he had a gentleman that was going to do a ramp. My idea was for a ramp to come out the front. In order for my mom to come out, there has to be a five-foot, according to ADA, space when you come out from the door. You can't just have some little thing here. They have to be able to turn around. Emergency people have to be able to get into the house if they come. And doctors and nurses and therapists come there all the time now. Hasn't really been a big emergency yet, but you don't know when. So ADA, according to the ramp deal, we have a deck come out five feet and then have a ramp come over because I didn't want to use that old... Keep... I'm going to go to the next one. We'll probably see it better. No, I'm sorry, forward. Yeah, to get rid of that, because that was the danger. And there was a, you can go another one over, I think it might be there. There was that. It just went out to the street and there was a drop-off. There was no way for us to get in and out. So I thought, well, I'll put the handicap ramp and whatever I have to do alongside the driveway. So we can already be over there. Nobody's going to come from the street. And there was never a sidewalk along there. Parking on the street I don't think will work because if she gets out on that side, then I'm going to have to put more concrete and stuff there for her to come out onto, and there would be a step up or down. It could be a little dangerous. Also, I'll show you there are draining problems. Sometimes there's been a lake out there on that street in the front, and it doesn't come from my house. You will see a river coming over from the Hollywood neighborhood down through houses. I was afraid our whole place was going to be flooded here a while back. So I don't think that would work, and the neighbors would probably all be livid at me because the parking is so at a premium. There's only four houses in there, and each person's got two cars, and everybody's kind of got the same problem. And even though you could buy a sticker, you may not get to park in your space because other people will get it. Since it's a dead end, when you get down in there, if you're parked down in that thing and your car is heading that way, you might have a heck of a time trying to turn out to get out. To me, that's not a good option to do, but I'll listen to what anyone says. Let's go on to the next one. Again, you can see what kind of condition it was. I only wanted to improve the place. Keep going. I'm not sure what's next. Is that the end? Okay, good. So that was before. Let's see. Show the nurse. I'm not sure. What's in there? Okay, yeah, there you go. Here's a gentleman that comes and gets my mom and takes her places. His vehicle has a ramp on the side. I mean, how is he going to maybe get in there? My idea was to use my 10-foot, which I get. and then come over only five foot to have for another emergency vehicle or ramps or something when people come. You can go on to the, just flip on through them. Yeah, that's his car. Medical transportation. There is a therapist coming to the house. The truck is so big, I mean, it takes up a lot of space. You can go ahead. There's another nurse coming. There's another person with the vehicle. There's another nurse coming in. They don't have anywhere to park on the street some of these people were having to park over on Beaumont it's a block away and walk over some medical people were because when they get down in there the way it was before there was no room to park i thought when i was doing this all i wanted was access from my mom there were that ladies walking on that side my plan is and you'll see it here to have a five foot walkway and a five foot a five foot wide ramp with a four foot walkway so it could get down through it easily. The only problem, one of the problems I see with what they've got on their ramps is you have to, in specifications, you can only have a one inch drop for every foot high and if you're a foot high that means you're going to be 12 foot long for the ramp. You can't just go and turn. It doesn't fit into what the, to what I've been given here to do this. so my idea was that the ramp would come down through there you probably go on flip through I'm trying to be quick there's another medical car there and you can see there's a car there oh here that yeah you can go to the next one you scraves I don't want to interrupt you but just want to remind you probably about two and a half minutes left okay let me see here oh okay go to the I measured all this. I've got pictures of it here. You can see the chimney on the side. I had to put a fence up out front and I had to put it in front of the house because a regular standard fence for like a vehicle, I couldn't even get it between there because it's such a small space on that side of the house. it's six foot 11 inches uh from the um the um what the uh oh well that's six foot i'm sorry six foot 11 inches that figures with six inches of space on each side because the actual width in there is seven foot eleven so i figured if you got six inches on one side of your car six inches here you can get down through there pretty good the little trucks and cars i used to have a a little Honda Civic. We used to put it down there and park and it was gravel back then when I lived there. My first son was born there. But these bigger vehicles and stuff, it's going to be very hard and rough to get them in there. And if you got them in there, then it's also hard to get them out. Let's see, you can go to the next one, sir. There's the truck kind of sitting there. One more. There's the 7 foot 10 inches from the chimney over to the end of the pad, which is that right has to be a few inches off the property line i think eight inches was the rule so that that's all i've got on the side of the house to go down through my truck can't go in the back at all maybe one day we can get a car okay aerial pictures go to the aerial pictures because they said they have aerial pictures showing cars back there and I have copies of them too. Okay that is a that's a aerial picture of before and the black line around those cars back there is what the pad is now. This was prior to the pad I just had to draw over that to kind of show you and I've got pictures of the actual pad back there. We got rid of all that gravel and stuff in the back because it was just a mess. We've got dogs they come out and they want to go potty everywhere. It just it was unusable. My mom mom can't walk on gravel so we wanted it to be paid back there so she could exercise you could go to the next one i did a thing off his grace if you could sum up your your points because your 15 minutes is up okay so we can have the opposition make their points my points are we really need something more than what i think i've been shown there willing to work to try to figure it out. I've got ideas and a lot more pictures and things I could show, but I'll let the other people have their say right now. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Does anyone have any questions for Mr. Graves before I allow? I do. Okay, Mr. Graves, come on back up. Mr. Graves, who lives in the house? I do with my mother. The two of you? Yes, that's the only place we could come back to for me to get her. I have a home here in town, but it doesn't have a bathroom on the first floor. That one did, so I renovated it and made it friendly for her. Does anyone else live in the house besides the two of you? No, there's an efficiency apartment upstairs, but it's been vacant for over a year. Okay. It's listed as a duplex is what I'm asking you. That's probably the efficiency apartment that you go around back to get up to. I'm putting a separate entrance on the other side from the driveway because people used to walk down the driveway to get there But I just haven't had time with taking care of my mom 24-7. I haven't had a day off in almost two years I can't really go out of the house and go too far away from her Fear that she might think I'm gone start looking for me and maybe walk out not to run away or anything But might come to a door and start looking out because she doesn't remember things You said the You said the backyard was gravel. You showed us a picture of some gravel. Is there paving in the backyard? Now there is. Now paved. When I had the work done, I had it paved for her. I had it reduced to a smaller footprint than what it was before, and I put more green space back there. You would see there's probably 500 extra square feet of green space now compared to what there was prior. It doesn't really show on these aerial pictures, but I have photographs. Thank you. Any other questions? Well, Mr. Griggs, have a seat, and we'll have how many people would like to speak in opposition? Two of you? Okay. Then come on up and please. I want to put my time on. That works even better. So what we would ask you to do, sir, is just put your name on the record. My name is Mark Barker. I live at 439 Park Avenue. It's about a block from here. I'm really here for, I don't know Mr. Gray's personally, I'm just really here concerned about the neighborhood and the long-term impact of putting parking pads in front yards that I have in this neighborhood. I brought up one slide, if you could put that up for me, and I gave it an extra so you all could see it in closer. It's just a Google. I just went to Google and got on there. It's really just kind of dark on this, but if you look in the back, there are two large trucks back there, it looks like to me. One looks like a King Cab. They were able to get back there into the back area and park. And I think this was used for this type of parking for years. I think there's also a two-car garage back there. So you got two parking spaces, a two-car garage. You got a long driveway that looks like it's four or five parking spaces. Could be if you stack them up. You got permit parking that allows for two parking permits plus two visitors. I think there's a space in front of this house that if you wanted to apply for a handicap-only parking permit, I don't think anybody would be opposed to that. I don't think anybody is opposed to any of the suggestions for alternatives that have been made by the staff. Our concern is that this is a National Historic Neighborhood. It is on the National Historic Register. It was approved by the Local Commission, the State Commission, the National Commission, and the character is a single family. I can only think of one other property that has wider than a single driveway. so it is completely out of character the yards are very small so if you add another driveway it takes up a large part of the yard and we have incredible pressure in this neighborhood from landlords that have dreams of buying houses expanding them paving in every inch of ground they possibly can and running out to as many students as they possibly can and if you start allowing this neighborhood to have parking in the front yard, you will kill it. It will go the way of State Street on the other side of campus, and it will die. So you have to think long-term, because Mr. Graves did not live here last year. He may not live here in the future, but that parking path is going to stay there. Thank you. Thank you, sir, for your comments. May I please come up and put your name on the record for us? My name's Kate Savage. I live at 619 Columbia Avenue. I've lived in my neighborhood reverse from owner-occupied to sort of rental, which is now predominantly what the houses are. I'm glad that Mr. Graves has decided to reside in his home, but as he said, it was rental for the last 20 years, and that has become more and more typical of my neighborhood. I agree with Mark Barker that I think if you set this new precedent of front yard parking, then it will be opening the can of worms. We have people who park in the front yard anyway that don't have parking pads, and we We have to very politely remind them or call 311 and have them ticketed for parking in the front yard. Essentially, you cannot park in the front yard. This parking pad has been poured illegally and I think that that also is not a good idea to just allow people to do something and then come here. And I'm not unsympathetic. I have an elderly mother myself, but I'm not sure that we need to allow emotions to get into this situation I agree that one day We'll all pass on and the packing pad will still be there if you agree to allow this I would ask that you put a condition on it that it is torn up after That this is just something that goes with mr. Graves his mother for the duration of her hopefully many more years to come why not permeable pavers why did he just have to pour a great big ugly piece of concrete there where are you going to hold the line I would ask you to hold the line in front of this there is parking available on that street there are four or five houses it's a dead end and he could easily apply for his own parking space in front of his home I have a narrow driveway I don't know of anybody who has a wide driveway we all have 10 inch driveways my friends have to park behind my car or I have to move and reconfigure we all have to do that if we are living in that neighborhood and I think that really you need to consider the fact that this neighborhood is beleaguered it is stressed by UK and students who come who park there who don't live there park there, get their bikes out of the boot, and then cycle to school. It's sort of just a general parking lot for anybody who gets up early and gets there first. It's a struggle. I'm not unsympathetic, but this is not a good idea. In fact, it's a very bad idea. And if you allow this today, I am sure you will have many more people who are requesting this, and you will have a hard time declining it. You won't be able to use the excuse that it was just for somebody's mother. That won't work. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Does anyone on the board have any comments or questions for the opposition? Mr. Graves, I will give you two minutes. If you want to come back and rebut anything that the opposition said, and then at that point we will have any open discussions, then we can take a vote. There are dozens of houses over there with dryways. I've measured them, and I have photographs, dozens and dozens, that are 20 foot wide in the area. There's also smaller and other houses with their whole front yards. I don't know if they have a need, but I'm just saying it's there. When I did what I did, I wasn't trying. I don't want my whole front yard either because five foot of that is going to be the ramp. If I have a ten foot driveway right there on that side, it puts me right up against the boundary line with trees and bushes and everything. I can't get out of the car to then get my mother out. So I have to pull over a couple feet and I have photographs of these type of things. And I don't know if I've got enough time to go through it. of the need and it's just you know the ramp we were going let's see can we go we got can we go with some more slides you have one minute mr. graves just one minute okay well one minute left don't have time for that then okay I don't what to say i'd like to try to work something out with the planning and the other people they put a parking pad across the street 150 square feet the same day and the same company did it they put mine in nobody i mean that's why i thought well i wouldn't do it the parking pad across the street it's on the other side it's not even up against the driveway it doesn't look good i'm going to landscape and fix everything up around it I don't know what to say. The front door is the only door my mom can come out. To have to take her in an emergency all the way down the driveway and out into the street. I do have one more thing to show why that you wouldn't want to park on the street. I'll show you the flooding out there. And things always seem to happen when something's going on. Let's see. Access. I wish I was at my computer. I could go through these things quick. I do have pictures of flooding out in the front yard and the whole area down there. We couldn't even get out into it. And I don't think we'd have, there's not really, I've got pictures of dozens of cars on the street and other people with big driveways and parking in the front. I just think somebody ought to work with us a little bit more, try to figure it out. Mr. Groves, I understand about the water. There's a lot of water issues. We appreciate your time. If the opposition looks like they want to speak, 30 seconds, and then if you guys want to make a real quick comment, sir. On the water issue, I do think they just had a project to address that. It wasn't meeting the EPA edict decree and they required them to address that. Only time will tell if it's addressed, but I think it's much better now than it was. Thank you. I'd like to just briefly make a couple comments. The first one is to the extent that the neighbor across the street has a new car pad and it's not properly permitted or approved. The remedy is the same one that someone has brought before us, which is bring it to someone's attention to the city and they'll look into it and see whether or not it's permitted to be there. some of the larger parking areas in this neighborhood are were not before us or were approved before I was on this board but and those are just two things I wanted to say I don't really have any comments but I'll let anyone else address it and then once we're done we'll have a vote and I'll remind everybody the motion to approve would be to approve the recommendation to disapprove Is that how it works? How would we set the motion? Depends on what the intent is. Assume the intent is to approve the staff's recommendation, which is a recommendation of disapproval. You make a motion for disapproval. Thank you. I do have a question. Could we see a picture of the rear parking pad? I thought he was. Did you have the current rear parking pad? He's got the folders. I didn't know, I'd never been here before, how I was going to work this out, and I actually had everything lined out how it was going to show. We can put on the overhead what was recently paved in the backyard. If we can get it lightened up as much as possible. That wasn't recently paved. That thing's an old picture from something. That's not even what we, modifications, let's see. Okay, show the before and after folder. No cars have ever been parked in that garage. That was built for a darkroom for me when I was doing photography. Let's see, okay, go, see that's before. Keep thumbing on through and we'll get to the afters. They're doing some work. You can see that's what it is right now. But if you can get down the side of the house, that's why we don't have a vehicle back there. We can't get through and we couldn't turn around. And my mom uses that for walking and exercise. My truck won't even go in that garage. It's not tall enough. You could maybe get some compact cars back there. That's the green space that's there. That used to all be gravel over there on that left side. Just trying to do improvements and make it nicer and not have it the way it was before. before it's horrible is there any more on there okay that's i'm trying to get that back to green space too that was all gravel let's see might be a couple there we go there's my mom their dogs that's probably all of them i guess that kind of show a little bit of the back thank you sir back there's the problem Ms. Smith, do you have any other? Well, no one else wants to comment. In that case, the chair will entertain a motion. I move that we approve PLNBOA 17-46, Jeff Scraves' request for variance to – I'm sorry. I move that we approve the disapproval of Jeff. That's just a move that we disapprove. There we go. Jeff Graves' request for a variance to increase the allowable width of a driveway from 10 to 21 feet at a property within the defined infill and redevelopment area in a single-family residential R-1E zone at 509 Marquis Avenue. based on the three reasons the staff recommended for disapproval. Mr. Needham has moved for disapproval. Do I have a second? Second. Mr. Glover seconds. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay, so it was unanimous. Good luck, sir, and the staff will be in touch, I'm sure. The next item we have on our agenda today is PLN BOA 1757, Beers and Dogs, LLC. The applicant is present. I recall there was opposition. How many people here in opposition? Three, and would you all like the opportunity to speak today? Okay. In that case, yeah, we'll bring everyone up. So after Mr. Graves has the time to clear his gatherings, I'll have you come up and introduce yourselves for the record for me. Hi, Brian Bearer. Taylor Stuckey of Stites and Harveston here on behalf of Brian Bearer. Thank you, gentlemen. Real quickly, since we are in opposition, I just wanted to do a couple things. The staff has recommended approval, and they've recommended four conditions. are you in agreement with those four conditions we all we are all except for we'd like the board to consider moving the restriction from 1 a.m. to 2 a.m. so that would be number three and your is that number three you're talking about you want to have amplified music until 2 a.m. is that the request that's correct Okay. I'll make a notation of that, and we'll bring that up. So please proceed with the project. So do you want to, Brian, do you want to start with the specifics of what you're trying to do? Yes. So we were here a month ago. We're back again. So the issue last time, you know, we're trying to play music for our patio. the issue last time was it wasn't clear how loud that music was so what we did was take sound measurements and came back with those that we hope make it more clear what impact we actually have on the area just to clarify we're talking about bar none which is directly next to pauses on limestone 385 south limestone the patio sits back from limestone about 60 feet And the music would be played out towards limestone from that location. There's an R4 zoning across the street, it's student housing. And there are some other residential areas around, but none other within the 100 foot boundary. Can we get the staff to go ahead and put the plans up on the screen? We also do have a number of letters in regard to this one, if you want those now. Yeah, please. And if you'd prefer to put your presentation item up there instead. Okay, no, I think this is good. This is kind of a closer up shot of the actual plan. app it shows where the residential areas are in relation to where we are that'd be great because I don't we do not have that in our package of information we do have this site plan so I would suggest we'll switch them out And if you wouldn't mind, give us two or three minutes to flip through these letters. Thank you. Thank you. Can we put your aerial up on the... My notation is on here. We're here. Pass-ups. This is pass-ups. Not as clear as I hoped it would be. We're here. This is Winslow. Yeah. This area here is the student housing. Real quickly, I got to be honest with you, bar none, it's a little after my time. So I'm trying to place exactly. So I know where the Tollyhoe used to be located, and then we got the Pazos building. I know where that is. Do you remember where Kitty O'Shea's used to be? I know where Kitty O'Shea's used to be. to be i was there when i was in college exactly where it is okay and then the where that the back deck of kitty o'shea's is that where the live music i would say the front deck oh it's going to be on the front side on the limestone side not on the wooden back deck okay i know where we are now Oh, yeah. If you can see it here. Pazos is here. Bar none is setbacks. Here's Pazos. And then there's Bar none. That's not it. Thank you. the ability to have music at their location. I believe that was about a year ago. That was before my time, but I did read through the staff report when I was writing this one. The situation was a little bit different there, but I... I don't know what to top of your head. I don't... I think there were maybe some conditions regarding the amplification of music. Yeah, that was my recollection. But I'm not 100% certain. Okay. All right. I just can't recall. Thank you. We have one more coming through, but we'll go ahead and let you guys go on to your presentation while we're passing this one. I think we covered a lot of ground at the last hearing. I think the one piece of information you were missing from us was how much this actually does affect the sound in the surrounding areas. So Mr. Bear took some sound measurements from various places around the business. And again, I hate that this map is not more clear, but I can tell you where he took them from. Again, we're located right here in this pink area. Right across the street in this purple area, he took a measurement. and with the sound on, and I'll show you up here too, this is the area he took the measurement from. With the sound on, it made a 5 decibel difference from about 70 decibels, 70 to 75 decibels to 75 to 80 decibels, and I know in a vacuum that doesn't mean anything to me, but I have a chart that basically converts decibels into common sounds that you might hear, and that's basically the difference between a vacuum cleaner sound and a dishwasher sound. So it's not a significant change, even right here, just across the street. Sorry, I did take the measurements, and I took ones at 8 o'clock, midnight, and then 1.30. 8 o'clock was without the music, and then midnight and 1.30 was with music. At midnight, we weren't really full yet, but around 1.30, the bar was full, so that's why I took that into account, because people also make noise as well. anyways the point being here is the fact that the decibel increase was never more than five decibels which is extremely minimal for that distance you know i took ones at south hill station directly across the street from our main entrance on limestone directly behind the building and then in front of center court and behind canes in my mind the whole issue here is whether or not our music is too loud obviously that's what people are concerned about I understand people are taking a proactive approach to this being representatives from their neighborhood associations etc but the reality is that the music that we play isn't at a level that's a nuisance to the neighborhood. And I think that my recordings prove that fact. That's my major point to make today. And one of the board conditions that we don't have any problem with is that the music that's played doesn't result in a nuisance to the neighborhood. just by receiving this variance, we would still be bound by the noise ordinances in the City of Lexington. So just by receiving this variance wouldn't mean that we were allowed to be unreasonable and create a nuisance in the surrounding neighborhoods. Anything else, gentlemen? That's all from us, I think. All right. Appreciate it. Does anyone from the Board have questions, I believe? Mr. Clark? Mr. Clark? Yes, I do. We talked about the sound at Center Court, and I think that's where most of the complaints come from. So in your sound check, can you hear the music as it's being played at volume at Center Court? Barely. Okay, barely. Mr. Clark, Mr. Baer did take measurements from directly in front of Center Court, and the decibel range was always between 65 and 70, whether or not the music was playing or not. I believe you could hear it faintly, but it was not a significant increase. I mean, when I was standing behind there, I could hear the music from Canes coming out of their drive-through speakers louder than ours. What time does Canes close? I think 3. 3 a.m., yeah. What about some of the other establishments along Limestone? What time do they close normally? 2.30. 2.30. That's why I requested to play music until 2.00. Yeah, gotcha. Which is consistent with the rest of the area. All right, thank you. Anybody else? All right, thank you, gentlemen. Have a seat. Whoever would like to speak first, please come forward. Would you guys be able to have five minutes each? Would that be appropriate? Thank you. Robert Ryan from White Tarrant Combs, here on behalf of Center Court. Center Court Board is apologetic to this board that they were not able to attend today, but due to their scheduling conflicts and some of them being out of state and out of country, they were just not able to attend. They asked me to do so in their stead and to convey their great concern about this request. One, they're asking for a request. The first is for a conditional use, and then secondly, for a variance from that conditional use, as you know. What they are very concerned with is we don't know what type of readings were taken. We don't know what kind of music was being played at the time that those readings were taken. by the bar itself, but they're very concerned that they can already hear music from the other establishment down there on the corner, which does not have amplified music outside the tin roof. And as I understand that that was approved, but it was not approved with outside entertainment. It was simply inside, and they already hear that music. I will tell you that the makeup of the center court ownership and tenants are not all students. There are students, undergrad, there are graduate students, there are also owners and occupants who are of all ages. We have middle-aged folks and we have senior citizens that are there. So we have a wide range of occupants and they're very concerned with the effect that this will have with music. Now as we understand, as I recall, the patio itself is open to the back. So even though the music is to be played towards the University of Kentucky, new dorms across the street, that that is still open to the back so the music could filter back through. Also, with those big buildings, and we've all seen them, they're such nice-looking buildings as they replaced the ones that we were on campus in back in the day. But, you know, there's certainly a reverberation that will occur of that music back off of those buildings, and they're just concerned with that kind of music. Also, as I'm sure this board is aware, and certainly not here to do the bidding of those folks at all, But there is also a proposal now before here in Lexington that that parking lot that's behind the McDonald's there right down the street from there. It's proposed to be a large complex for residential purposes called the hub. I think they just had one approved down on Virginia Avenue. But there's also, as I understand, an application pending, which, again, I'm not here on their behalf at all. but there is going to be a large residential complex that's going to be envisioned, whether it's approved or not, for that parking lot. So there's going to be a lot of concentration in that area of residential units. And not only will the music that comes from Bar None concern them, it also is a very, very major concern for them for the precedential value and the precedence that if you approve this application, this request, will have on all of those different bars and restaurants in that area because if you approve this one, then the next one that comes along is going to say, well, here's the precedence. You approve this. You're allowed to have this live music outside until 2 a.m. in the morning or whatever time that this board approves. And so you will have more and more requests, And again, more and more noise, more and more issues that all these people will have. And so, you know, we know that the University of Kentucky has concerns over it. I think you've read those concerns. The residents, the owners, and the occupants of Center Court have great concerns over this request and proposal. And in light of everybody's time and the board's time, I'll step away and just say that the center core folks would ask that you deny this application and this request. Thank you, Mr. Ryan. Sir, come forward to the podium, put your name on the record for us. My name is Jim Wims and I am with the University of Kentucky, where I serve as the Senior Assistant Provost for Student and Academic Life. And I have a letter here that I'd like to read into the record and have copies for you that I can give to you after I read the letter. Or if you'd like, I can give those to you now. You can give them to us now if you want. Okay. And then make sure you give one to the staff just to put it in as exhibit. You have it? Okay. Thank you. So I'd like to read this and then in the interest of time, take my seat. Would you like a moment to read it? No, you may proceed and read it yourself if you want. Okay. So on behalf of the University of Kentucky and the students we serve, I'm writing to express our respectful opposition to a proposal before you, to allow live music at Pazzo's every evening until 2 AM. In short, Pazzo's is directly across Limestone Street and within several feet of a number of residence halls on UK's North Campus. Over 1,100 students live in close proximity to Pazzo's. And while we want to be supportive of area businesses, which provide important services to our students and our campus community, We are deeply concerned about the long and early morning hours being contemplated in this proposal. Our focus is on putting students and their success at the center of everything we do. We want students to be successful in their studies and other pursuits as part of our campus community, and the greater community of Lexington that we all call home. We want them to graduate on time and without debt, prepared to leave lives of meaning and purpose. In many instances, that means taking important leadership and economic roles in Lexington. Lexington succeeds to its fullest potential when our students do. That success means a focus on studies, particularly during the week, in an atmosphere that encourages and allows for academic preparation and appropriate rest. Extended hours of music on weeknights well into the early morning will not be conducive to the kind of learning environment we want for our students. We understand area neighborhoods around puzzles have expressed similar concerns about weeknight and early morning entertainment. So we join them in opposition to this request. Moreover, while the staff has offered a proposal that would involve fewer days and alternative hours, we continue to be concerned about the impact on students as a result of any proposal that would allow for entertainment during the week that goes into the early morning hours in such close proximity to student residence halls. If a variance is granted, however, our request would be that it focused solely on weekend nights. Furthermore, we request special consideration for the entire weeks of midterms and finals week, when we would ask that there be no outdoor music of any kind. Regardless of the decision made by the Board of Adjustments, the university expects that the noise ordinance will be enforced to ensure an appropriate environment for student success for our residents across the street. The noise ordinance goes into effect at 11 PM each night, which appears to be in conflict to the applicant's request to start live music at 11 PM. We appreciate your consideration and look forward to continued discussions about this important topic as we all, area businessmen, government, and the university are focused on how best to create strong community on our campus and in our city. This is respectfully submitted by me on behalf of the university. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Does anyone have any questions? No? Okay. Next. Hello, my name is Mike Kovash. I spoke at the last meeting and I had made some notes here, but what I had planned to say, much of it has already been covered, so I will go quickly. The main points, by the way, I live at 371 South Upper Street and I'm today representing the Historic South Hill Neighborhood Association, not just myself. So at the last meeting, I made the following points. The association recommends disapproval due to the noise nuisance. Our experience with this and actually a number of other establishments along South Lyme shows that only a ban on outdoor sound can control the noise level. Approval would set a precedent so that several bars would then proceed to allow outdoor music. or at least request it and likely be then allowed. And finally, the staff condition on noise, as it's presently written, is vague and unenforceable. So those were the points that I made last time. I would like to say that my understanding of last meeting's ending was that we would get together with the applicant and explore some compromise possibilities. I will say that I attended a meeting called by the applicant's attorney in an attempt to do exactly that, and the applicant didn't show up. It's already been mentioned that the Hub 1 wants to build a 480-bed apartment complex. This is directly behind Pazos. So in addition to the 1100 students living across South Lyme, we're talking about another 480 beds directly behind Pazos which will be affected. I point out that the B1 zone, the conditional uses, the one we're talking about now, it's as applicable to restaurants with live entertainment or dancing, shall be located at least 100 feet from any residential zone. That's what we're here to discuss. Reducing that to 30. And then the word and. And shall be soundproofed with noise not becoming a nuisance, creating a nuisance to the surrounding neighborhood. It's not that you can maintain 100 feet and or or give up the noise, no, you shall, no matter how far you are from the neighbors, you shall not create a noise nuisance in the neighborhood. So even if 30 feet is adopted, you still may not create a noise nuisance. I wanted to talk for a minute about, last time there was some discussion about, well, maybe it's unfair that we would not allow POSOs to do this, whereas others are projecting sound outside. Those are non-conforming uses, and I think we mentioned earlier in the discussion today that we can't justify allowing POSOs to do this using other non-conforming examples. Okay, I just wanted to make that clear. DBs. Okay, I teach a course called Physics of Music, and so I want to talk about logarithms for just a second here. Sorry to do that to you. I have analyzed the data which was provided to me. Notice that we were not part of these measurements. That is to say, we don't know what the conditions were at the time that the measurements were made. that at a later date someone won't play louder music or different music or music in a different way. We have no idea. However, if you take them at face value and you ask, what's the difference between a 70 dB sound and a 75 dB sound, it's not the difference between a vacuum cleaner and a dishwasher. In fact, if you notice that those numbers are actually logarithms and you say what numbers do you have to add if 70 is the base and now you add music how loud is the music so that the combination is at 75 the answer is 68. okay so basically 270 db sounds combine to make a 75 and what's a 70 db sound well the attorneys have provided us with the list It's a vacuum cleaner, for example. So the question would be, do you want a vacuum cleaner at your bedroom window all night long? And they've done this measurement across the street, across Limestone Street. They've also done this measurement behind the bar and, again, seeing this 5 dB increase. So the question is, how much does the music contribute? The answer is about 70 dB, which is the number that they have observed before they turned on the music. That music adds a similar amount. So that's actually how dBs work, and it's simply because they are logarithmic scales. They don't add together. When you add two 70s, you don't get 140. You get about 75. Okay? Thank you sir, any questions? Okay, ma'am, please step forward and say your name. Hello, my name is Carolyn Gago. I represent 63 condominium units in South Hill Station. We are located to the rear and just to the side on the corner of Bolivar and Upper Street. Everybody else has said most of what I would like to convey to you. However, my big problem is with the extended hours of the late night entertainment. This is not palatable in a residential living area. We have doctors, nurses, residents, interns, students, professors, and business people living close to these businesses. I do want to point out that our location is one of our biggest assets in leasing because we're close to the university. We're close to the hospitals. We're close to the bars and entertainment. This is great for leasing our units, of which I own some and I do lease them. The only problem is we do not wish our location to become a burden when we're leasing our units. It would become a burden if noise is an issue in this neighborhood. My other objection is that this sets a precedent for outdoor musical entertainment and dancing in an area that's already serviced by other bars and restaurants. it extends the ability to broadcast outside therefore annoying the residential neighbors mainly due to pavement without any sound barriers the noise echoes we have a barren sound echoing area because most of it is paid for parking in that vicinity that's it i just wanted you to know our opposition to the extended hours and the outdoor music thank you ma'am is there anyone else here in opposition who would like an opportunity to speak in that case i'll give the applicant three minutes to rebut and then if the board has any questions we can address those at that time let me start um sorry first thing i just want to address is um you know the fact that i took the measurements um and people basically calling the question how accurate they are frankly i'm offended by that we all swore to tell the truth here i did take the measurements with a decibel reader and can attain that they are definitely accurate and it was with normal conditions with without music and then with music as i explained earlier having said that going over what the readings were around 65 to 70. so the base reading without music is around 60 to 70 in that area which are just simple sounds of a city so i can appreciate that people don't want loud music i i definitely understand that and my point today is the fact that we aren't playing music that is affecting that area loudly if they would like to do their own measurements and bring those here and prove otherwise they can but they didn't because um i don't believe that it does prove their point i believe it proves my point that we aren't currently and just to sum up we we understand the objections we're not asking to create a nuisance we're asking to play live music and it's not creating a nuisance in the areas where these people reside. The closest place is student housing. I'm sympathetic to that argument, but we were all students once, and Thursday through Saturday is the weekend as far as students are concerned, and I don't believe that what we're asking to do contributes more noise than is already there, a significant amount. Any questions or comments? All right. Oh. A couple questions. And I'm not sure who can answer this, whether it's the applicant or the opposition or the staff, but is this setting a precedent? Is there outdoor music in this area now and where? I would suggest we let the staff discuss that first and then we'll let the applicant and then if anyone from the opposition wants to chime in, that would be my recommendation. That would suit me if that's the case. And in connection with that question, I understood earlier from the staff that Tin Roof was the only establishment in this area, and that's this two-block area, that has amplified music. did I mishear that or is that correct that is correct that the tin roof does have noting that the band area would be confined to the interior at the rear of the building and would be insulated soundproofed as much as possible to avoid disturbing the nearby residential neighborhood That's in regard to the tin roof. But they're not out in the parking lot. Correct. The music is taking place inside. Okay. But does that mean the doors are open? Their garage doors are open as that music is being played? I think that is how it has been practiced, yes. Mr. Clark, did that answer your question or do you want to have anyone? I'm not sure it answers my question. Is that the only music that is outside, I guess is what I'm asking, in that whole area. If you come around, I can kind of go through the properties that we have some pretty good information for. I would like that. Okay. I'll try to go back and forth between these, but the subject property, of course, is 385 South Limestone. Right in here. Mr. Marks, how about... Okay. Let's do this one, then we can turn around. That way the audience can see it. Okay, yeah, that's great. If you all can turn, that would be super. So subject property right here, 385. This black block right here is saturated with at least three places that have music, late night music. 303 is tin roof. They're the one along this strip that has been to the Board of Adjustment and has been approved for indoor live entertainment. Now, I say that because in reality they do have wide garage doors. They have kind of an L-shaped building that has two sides that have garage door openings on it. So they do set up inside. I was there last Friday night. They had a live band set up inside the building, but the garage doors were open. So we don't technically call that outdoor live entertainment, but as a practical matter, it's a pretty open environment. environment this is two keys tavern right here that's pretty much grandfathered in between these two there's a place I believe it's called the paddock that has music that they provide late night so those three existing ones are all in this block right here this block here doesn't have any board of adjustment approved live entertainment although there is some history with what previously existed at 385 some of you are familiar with years ago so there is some history there of what might have happened many years ago up to just maybe a few years ago so mr clark his terms of precedent that's something that you all will have to evaluate for this block here the places that have expressed concern are center court right here and south hill station right here and of course this block is closer to those places than this block so and then this place that was referenced for additional residential units on the back side of boulevard of jersey sorry there's a multi-story building proposed there that'll have several hundred residential units in it so i hope this will give a little bit of context and that might help you so so what we're saying is is there at this point there's no live outdoor music approved in this area that's correct where is the hub going can you show that on the map i don't know if it which exact locks it is but it's it's right in here that's what i thought yes that old parking lot right behind mcdonald's that's what i thought all right thank you jim jim and the and the new dorms are across from limestone is that correct the dorms that have been built and are occupied are right in here Talking about up this way? 310 is the hospital, isn't it? I believe that's what I was going to say. I think that's the hospital. I think that's the old good Sam. Any more questions for staff, Mr. Clark? No. I did see that people had their hands raised and would like to speak. it the applicant do you want to say anything before we allow others i would just like to point out that the area where 10 roof is is closer to some of the objectors than our establishment is that's that's all i and and these these areas aren't separated by that much much so to say that there's no library approved in our section i don't i'm not sure that's 100 back sorry opposition wants to speak just come up one at a time let's try to keep our remarks short thank you i'll i'll be quick i just wanted to point out something that i failed to mention And as I read the letter, one, when I mentioned the 1,100 students, those are students who live directly across Lime Zone. There are three additional residence halls directly behind those two, which houses another 1,000 students. Plus the fact that there is a repurposed residence hall, Patterson Hall, that now serves as an academic support center where we have visiting scholars staying as well. And so I do want to point those things out. And then finally what I want to do is challenge the assumption that the weekend starts on Thursday. Not all students party on Thursday and through Monday. And so we have classes on Friday, and students do study. And so I do want to disavow that notion that all students just party on Thursdays. Thank you so much. Let me just add that I thought that was peculiar that the weekend starts on Thursday. Being a former U.K. professor, I find that to be somewhat obnoxious. It was my remark, and I'm sorry. I do apologize. It was not appropriate for this forum. I'm sorry. That's okay. I do understand the reality. If you look at the bars, as far as how crowded they get, that is definitely Thursday through Saturday. Believe me, I understand. One more thing I just wanted to mention. Like I said, I can definitely appreciate how many students live around there in that area. at that 342 block that he was just speaking about. But the fact of the matter is, it's whether or not the music is too loud or it's a nuisance for them, and it's just simply not. So, I mean, it doesn't matter if there's people living all around us everywhere that are all students, but if it's not loud, it's not loud. Mr. Ryan? And then two more, and then I'm going to cut off discussions unless anyone on the board has something they want to discuss. I'll just be very brief. I just don't want to get lost in this conversation about students only, and certainly I can appreciate the professor's concerns on Thursday nights being bar night, but there are other residential folks down there besides just students, and there are graduate students, and there are professional, and then there's, as you've heard, doctors and all kinds of other professional people and there are so people who are of middle age and some of senior age and so I would ask that this board not get caught up in just because it's close to campus it's close to a lot of students a lot of students are across the way that you get lost in well this is just a student issue it's not it's it's for a lot more ages and a lot more people who invested a lot of money and live there and want their their time and and their ability to sleep respected. And so we would appreciate you would keep that in mind as well. And finally, just a bit of history at Two Keys, at Tin Roof. Those people did work with the South Hill Neighborhood Association. When they were building that, in the end, we all made it clear that it was a indoor music venue, And the soundstage was designed by one of our resident architects for that purpose. Next to that, actually behind it, what has become a restaurant, a Mexican restaurant, they also approached us for outdoor music. We went through many measurements of outdoor sound levels with them side by side and found that we were not able to ensure low enough sound levels in residential areas there that would satisfy the noise ordinance. And so that's another, those are two cases explicitly where we worked with the businesses and tried to ensure that they could do what they wanted to do or satisfy ourselves, everyone, that they could not. Thank you, sir. Does anyone from the board have anything more to add? I have, I just have maybe a comment and concerns. I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. There's been a lot of discussion about, I guess, the music and music levels and the noise ordinance and such, but the noise ordinance was not covered by the staff report, as I understand, in any fashion. I didn't see anything about the noise ordinance. The application, the zoning ordinance 8-16D5 talks about indoor and outdoor live entertainment with dancing. And I wonder if, I mean, I don't know what the noise ordinance has, what it provides, other than not be a nuisance. And that's what the zoning ordinance says as well. so there's been a lot of discussions about noise and such but we do have a noise ordinance and if somebody's violating the noise ordinance or then they would also be in violation of the zoning ordinance talking about creating a nuisance of the surrounding neighborhoods so I'm a little confused by the discussion and the arguments back and forth about that not so confused that I can't have an opinion, but I'm a little concerned about that. So you're saying that if there's a noise ordinance that says music has to stop at 11, and they have the right to continue till 1? Well, I don't know what the noise ordinance says. Does it say, I mean, what does it say about the timing of music, indoor outdoor live or otherwise I don't know I'd like to see it I mean I don't I don't want to read it into the record thank you very much but I sure would like to take a look at it yeah please approach Okay, it talks about annoyance and disturbances, endangering health and safety, personal property and such. Noise disturbances on a public right-of-way or public place. Okay. more specific prohibition related to this activity. And again, it talks about noise disturbances, noise disturbances, and I don't know how you measure it. How do you measure that with complaints? I mean, how does the city enforce the noise ordinance? It's enforced by police. It's very difficult, despite their best efforts, and I know that many citizens don't consider it as best efforts, because we get a lot of frustrated citizens say that they've called police and they've gotten no progress. What can we do? And of course, our answer is they just need to be persistent with calling complaints in to police. And police does make an effort to enforce, but it's extremely difficult. I believe there's some language in there. For one, there's a higher standard that kicks in after 11. And number two, I think there is something about measurable, you can hear it beyond a certain boundary. Mr. Wim says in his letter that the noise ordinance goes into effect at 11 p.m. which appears to be in conflict with the applicant's request to start live music on the patio at 11. Just because music has started doesn't mean it violates the noise ordinance. That's correct. Okay. Thanks. Any additional comments or questions? I have a quick question for the staff. on the conditions where you did approve it but you only approved it to one o'clock I just wonder the particular logic behind that if the other establishments you know are allowed to do stay open past that I think staff is open to changing that to meet with what the neighboring facilities have it was just sort of a compromise type of condition but I think that if that's the board feels that it should be too then I think that's I'd like to ask applicants this kind of general question why does it have to be outside that seems to be the problem is that the facility itself can't be used any other way and what happens when it gets cold weather so here's what happened one time when i wasn't there a dj set up outside on our deck on our raised deck that was where someone there was cause for concern someone saw that and knew that we didn't have an outdoor uh variance that's the only time we've ever did that usually it's actually inside facing out is what is is where we set up on our patio inside in the speaker's face out to play for our patio um so i mean all this talk about like outdoor i mean it's it's really it's not outdoor but i was under the impression uh or i was told that you know if you can hear it outdoor then it's it then it um classifies as outdoor so i mean we're playing it indoors but facing out your application your application is for a conditional use permit to allow indoor and outdoor live entertainment and dancing right because i was told that since they can hear it outside it is technically outside i'm just clarifying that where we do play isn't outside that's not and i understand that tin roof which is down the block admittedly down the block but they play indoor music which can be heard outdoors right so it extremely similar uh setup and so it sounds like you're requesting the same thing that tin roof is currently doing is that jim is that we've got to be very careful with how we couch this because it's true it's consistent with what they are currently doing with possible exception that exactly where they're setting up in the proposed place bar none may be a roofed area that's not within a walled section of the building that we can have mr. bear clarify that but tin roof was approved not with any concept that it was going to be designed in terms of having garage doors that opened up to the outdoors it was in fact there was a condition that the building be soundproof so so so someone could bring them in front of us potentially well I mean I think I mean the the thing that gives me pause about the application the thing that makes me tend to want to vote against it is the inclusion of the words outdoor live entertainment that that's what if I mean that's what gives as I was clarifying I mean I don't have an intention to set up music outside it's just the fact that it was expressed to me that if we're gonna be playing music and people can hear it my patio it classifies as outdoor music that's that's that's why i i mean i i understand what you're saying i mean i i believe that we're playing it inside as it is and it's just projecting outside what we have what we've been doing is turning the speakers to project them inside but i'd like to project them to our patio to the customers and that's the people who will be hearing it that's if the board were if the board were inclined to not grant the application based on the language that says outdoor live entertainment would you be agreeable to removing that part of the language in order to i guess get the board to approve it and i don't know what the board's going to i guess i'm just curious what i'm applying for then um if i'm playing inside i mean but if you're playing to a patio you're playing to an outside audience right yeah so I think if you were to change what he's applying for, his intent is to play the music for it to be outside, even if the band is located inside. Yeah, and that sounds similar to what Tin Roof is currently doing, and that's what gives me pause. But that's, I mean, if you're doing what Tin Roof is doing, then I'm a little more comfortable with the application. That is what we're doing. If it's an in, well, let me finish. If what you're asking for is for permission to do more than what other establishments in the area are currently doing, then I intend to side with the opponents of your application. So if there's, I mean, so my statement is if there's no amendment to the application as written, I'm probably not in favor of it. And that's just me. I'm just one of seven because we've got a full complement today, but that's my concern. Would it be possible for the board to tailor conditions in a way that would allow allow us to get the permit? I'm only one, so I can't say. There's a broad condition that we not create a nuisance. I think there's a number of specific steps that we'll need to take to abide by that, and maybe one of them is keeping the music indoors. indoors, but if the variant says that we have to not create a nuisance, we'll not create a nuisance. Yeah, and I'm not concerned about that because nuisances are hard to enforce and hard to police. I'm concerned about two things. I'm concerned about the application for outdoor live entertainment, and I'm concerned about the part of number three, the condition number three that says amplified music. This is amplified music. That's my concern. Could the staff please put on the site plan real quickly? And if you would not mind sharing your red pointer with the applicant or show him how to use it. And then we'll use this screen once the site plan comes up. And I want you to specifically show us where the band. Sorry, yes. Last time we went over that in depth and we didn't really touch on it today. so i do i would like to discuss that so so where's the band and the dj gonna be okay so okay so here's our outdoor bar and um this is where the music will be played right where this little dot is this is where our garage door is uh where the dj sets up right in here this is all inside where my corner is now this is our indoor bar this is a covered patio and this is where they set up with their speakers facing out to play onto this patio it's the difference between if they face inside and play into the into this crowd or face outside and uh yeah play out there so like i said i don't have any intention to you know to play to set up out here to have a dj out here or to put speakers out here the speakers will always be right here um it's just whether they're facing in just right inside the interior sorry just right inside the interior outside correct where the uh where the garage door is okay where's you've got a back patio covered patio is that open as well sorry this is the back patio here that's open it's covered it's covered it's covered yes um so it's so from here you know you can hear this music but it's it's It's, I mean, to be honest, it's not loud enough. I mean, I usually play music back here on our speakers because you can't really hear this, what's going on up here. But is it open to the, it's a patio, so it's covered. It's covered, yeah. I'm sorry, I don't know why I'm referring to it as a patio. It's not a patio, it's covered. Okay, so it's got walls. It has walls, yes, but it has windows as well that open. I'm sorry? It has windows that open. There are speakers on that patio. There are speakers what, sorry? There are speakers on that patio. On this patio here. There's two, one here and one here. Are those outside speakers? I mean, they're inside. This is still inside is what I'm saying. I think they're saying it's an enclosed patio. Not an open air patio like the front. And I have to say, I mean, these speakers are very small compared to what we play here. And are you saying when you play on the speakers in the back, you're actually playing different music? I'm just playing music on our radio. Because they can't hear. Right. Because it's like, right, there's not enough atmosphere back there. If you don't have, if I don't play music back here, I mean, you can, you don't really hear music. You can't really, you know, you're aware that they're playing up here, but it's not like anything to listen to. So back to your comment, Mr. Glover. we could say it's indoor entertainment but they're right on the threshold to the exterior I personally have not been in 10 roof but from the description it sounds like the 10 roof band is at least in the interior further in the interior but I don't know and I don't think that's really a precedent they came and got an approval and if someone thinks that they're violating their conditional use they can bring it before the staff and then we may hear it but you know that's just my feeling on it any other questions with the board members I just have one comment I think this whole discussion is the noise level yes and we don't have a good definition of that and I think that might be a good project for staff because I I think that can be defined. And I'm not talking about in your particular case, but we've run into this several times. And I think it's time that we took a look at that and established some type of noise level. And it can be at some different levels according to the time of the playing of the music. But it is the noise level. And, of course, you all have to be aware of it because the complaints are going to come in and the lights are going to flash, and we hope that you will listen to the comments. If we do grant this, you listen to the comments that have been here because your surrounding residents don't want loud music late into the night. I definitely understand that, and I appreciate that. And that's why I firmly believe that we aren't causing innocence with the sound that we're providing. Loud and clear. I have a question for legal. I think is maybe the staff can answer it. We can grant either variances or conditional uses with provisions for review, can we not? We have in the past. I think we just did one, I believe, for the shop down on, was it 7th Street? Where we told we had to come back in a year, the strip shop, scrap yard. Okay, I think we just had one of those recently. Blue Moon also. My recollection is that was a conditional use. I don't know if we've reviewed variances. Yeah, I was thinking it was more conditional use because they're dynamic variances or not. We have put restrictions on conditional uses for review or changed conditions, you know, as they apply to conditional uses. I just have a comment. I think we've got a situation where we've got some bars that are nonconforming, and they're adding to the problem. And I'm sympathetic to the people who live in the neighborhood because I wouldn't want to have my sleep disturbed by noise to the wee hours of the morning. And so I think we get to a saturation point. It's, you know, how much is enough? And I think to Ms. Whitman's point, we've got to deal with and have some defined noise ordinance that is enforceable. So I think we've reached a saturation point. Any other comments? All right, hearing none, I would like to go ahead and have a vote one way or the other. if someone has, would like to entertain a motion. You guys have been chatting all day. Somebody make a motion. Someone has a strong feeling one way or the other, and we'll either win or lose, and then we'll move on. On your motion. Mr. Chair, if there's a motion that's not entirely consistent with what staffs recommended, then it may be a need to have additional findings. So if you need some time to work with us or the law department, I don't know where you're headed, but I'm just saying any motion will have to have findings. I don't either. I mean, I personally am favoring it up or down on what is in front of us but if someone on the board wants to propose a motion that is not in front of us in the report then it begrudges me to say we could take a five minute recess and let that person talk with legal the legal department but someone needs to let me know they want to do that. Okay, we'll take a five minute recess. Thank you. I call back into session and once again, the chair will entertain a motion on this matter. Mr. Chair, I move we approve PLN VOA 17-57 Bears and Dogs request for a conditional use permit to allow indoor and outdoor live entertainment and dancing accessory to a cocktail lounge and a variance to reduce the required setback of such a use from a residential zone from 100 feet to 30 feet within the defined infill and redevelopment area in the neighborhood B1 zone business B1 zone at 385 South Limestone for the reasons in the staff report and subject to the four conditions stated therein thank you mr. Glover do I have a second thank you mr. Needham all those in favor please say aye We have Ms. Smith and Ms. Myers? No, Whitman. So we have two I's. All those opposed say nay. Nay. Nay. So we have Ms. Myers, Mr. Glover. I'm abstaining. Okay. Mr. Needham was a nay. Did you, are you an I or a yes or a no? okay start back over again guys we have a first and we have a second the motion is to approve all those in favor please raise your hand so we have three in favor all those opposed please raise your hand three opposed in that instance the motion fails the motion fails so sorry about that okay let's move on to the next item on the agenda first off I would like to welcome Raquel oh I'm sorry the application has failed Mr. Glover wanted me to point that on the record application is first I'd like to introduce everyone to Raquel Smith who had her first harder why do I keep saying Smith sorry Raquel Carter she will be she was just appointed this week to the board so she'll be she'll have a four-year term we're looking forward to serving with her she may not know those four years but that's how long it lasts are there any staff items that we need to discuss I do know we had started bantering because we will need to make a decision on our calendar for next year very soon so those who would like to move our meetings from the last Friday of the month have ideas and come up with days you can do it or you cannot do it on a regular basis so we can have those discussions prior to the agenda for next year being set the next meeting date will be October 27th, 2017 in Chambers. If there's no further business, I will adjourn the meeting. Thank you.