It's Dominic the Donkey, jingety-jing, the Italian Christmas Donkey. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. Jingle bells around his feet and presents on his sled. Hey, look at the Mayors Derby on top of Dominic's head. A pair of shoes for Louie and a dress for Josephine. The label on the inside says they're made in brook-a-lean And hey, jingity-jing, it's Dominic the donkey Jingity-jing, the Italian Christmas donkey La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la Children sing and clap their hands and Dominic starts to dance They talk Italian to them and they even understand. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the December 15, 2017 Board of Adjustment Hearings. I'm going to go through some of the administrative items right now. We will have likely, hopefully, two more members showing up before the hearings start. But we do have a quorum, so I'll go ahead and start with the information. First, if you have a cell phone, please turn it off or put it on silent so it doesn't ring through the hearings. If you plan on testifying today, either applying for or opposing an application, if you would please at this point stand for me so I can swear you in. Okay. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you very much. So if you have sworn yourself, if I have sworn you in, then when your case is called, you're allowed to come into the podium and testify without me having to reswear you. The order looks like all the items today, I believe, are for recommended approval. So with that being said, the order for the hearings would be the applicant would come up first, give us a presentation. If there's no opposition, then we'll go through that very quickly. if there is opposition then what we'll do is the applicant will speak the opposition will speak applicant will have a rebuttal and then we'll make a decision at that time please do not start talking from the audience if you are in a case everyone's going to have an opportunity to talk today but just wait your turn or raise your hand and the chair will recognize you so the first item is on on the regular agenda is the approval of the minutes which was staff sent out has the have the board members had an opportunity to review those are there any recommended changes in that case I will entertain a motion so move approval Thank You mr. Clark moves for approval do I have a second Second. I've got a second for Ms. Meyer. I'm sorry. I'm trying to get my thing up. Okay. Is there any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, then please mark your approval or disapproval. And that carries. Thank you very much. Okay. The next thing I will do is I'm going to go through the agenda. If the applicant is here, I will call your case. Please stand for me so I do know that you are present. And then I will ask if there's any opposition. If there is opposition, what we will do is if you think there's an opportunity for you to settle or if you're just here wanting to know what the project's about, I would ask for you to step outside, have a discussion with the applicant. If not, we'll put you at the end of the docket for opposed applications. So the first item on R, we have no variance appeals today. We have conditional appeals. The first one is PLM BOA 17-85 Serenity Place. Is the applicant present? Please stand. Thank you. Is there anyone here in opposition to this matter? Oh, we do have one. Yes? Is there anyone here in opposition of the Serenity Place matter today? No? Okay, perfect. Well, then, no opposition will have your case heard first. So if you want to sit down, I'm going to go through the rest of the items. The next item on the agenda is PLM BOA 17-86, White Haven's application. Mr. Billings, is there anyone here in opposition to that matter today? Thank you, ma'am. Is there any reason we think that you guys could have a discussion in the hallway, talk about the plans? Okay, perfect. If you guys have an opportunity to stand and go out in the hallway, you guys can chat with Mr. Billings, and then we'll have your case heard first on the opposition docket. So anyone in opposition to this matter, please go out there and talk to Mr. Billings and the applicant. The next item on the agenda is PLM BOA-1788. Manor War Goff's application is the applicant here. Thank you, ma'am. Is there anyone here in opposition to this matter? Okay, I see no opposition. We'll have you called second on the non-opposed docket. the next item is BOA 17-89 time to shine car wash is the applicant present thank you gentlemen is there anyone here in opposition all right we have one opposition is there any reason you guys want to go out in the hallway and discuss this matter perfect I appreciate that very much what have you We'll call it second on the opposition. And I'm glad to report that that's it for the docket today. So what we're going to do is we will go to the first matter on the non-opposed docket, which is PLN BOA-17-85 Serenity Places Request for a Conditional Use Permit. So as the applicant, if you wouldn't mind, come on up to the podium. And thank you. Who would like to be the talker? Apparently I'm being nominated. That sounds great. So if you wouldn't mind just tell your name for the record. Sure. Tanya Jernigan. Tanya. And it looks like the staff has recommended approval of your application. They have recommended four conditions for that approval. Have you read those conditions? Yes. Are you in approval? I mean, are you in agreement to abide by those? Yes. Thank you, ma'am. Okay. Does anyone from the board have any questions of the applicant at this time? All right. Hearing none, the chair would entertain a motion. I move that we approve BLN BOA 17-85 Serenity Places request for a conditional use permit to establish an outpatient office. than one unit of an existing apartment building in a planned neighborhood residential R3 zone at 1589 Hill View Place for reasons recommended by staff and subject to the four conditions. Thank you, Ms. Meyer. Do I have a second? Second. I have a second by Mr. Clark. Is there any discussion on the motion at this time? Hearing none, then I'd like you to register your vote, please. The motion carries. Good luck with your project. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm going to skip number two on the docket since they are still out in the hallway and I will call number three, which is PLNBOA-17-88, Manor, Golf, in their application for a conditional use permit. The applicant, thank you, ma'am. If you wouldn't mind, put your name on the record. name is laura watchter i'm with ea partners thank you ma'am and the staff has recommended approval today of your application your application there are four conditions does your client uh agree to abide by those four conditions yes sir thank you ma'am and is there any questions for the applicant by the board yes i would like to to just ask maybe the staff why this said it says it's expanding an existing golf course I just see I see expansion of structures that's correct sir we're requesting a 1,000 square foot expat expansion of the existing building there will also be a separate building to try out golf clubs and would be a heated building that you could hit out onto the driving range for and then we're also requesting a variance for the sign height or better location of the site and being the sign that's out there right now you can't see until you get right up on the entrance so it would be a much safer location and if it's elevated it would be seen and I understand that I guess I guess my question is what why it why we're saying it expanding the golf course the golf course no expansion there I asked that can I ask the staff that question wait one second ma'am um the use is being expanded just by nature of there being additional square footage of built structures is the reason it was written that way so should we change the to it use permit to expand the use or does it matter are you satisfied with that if that's correct I mean if that's good the correct language I'm fine with that I just want to be sure that that it's clear that I think what we're proving it should be fine as is yeah it's a driving range facility understand I live out there so I know exactly I've used it and so I have no problem thank you mr. Clark Any other comments for staff or the applicant? All right. Hearing none, then I will entertain a motion. I move to approve BOA 1788, Manowar Golf, requesting a conditional use permit to expand an existing golf course and a variant to increase the maximum height for the sign from 10 feet to 20 feet in the agricultural rural zone at 1201 Manowar Boulevard. based on the staff's recommendation and the conditions as listed. Do I have a second? Second. I have a second. Is there any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, then please register your vote. Motion carries. Good luck with the project. Thank you. Thank you. No one has returned from their discussions out in the hallway. So should we move on and take care of the staff items or should we wait? Okay. So what we'll do is I'm going to call up number four on the, numeral four on the general, on the agenda, which is just four items. Want to know if any board members wishes to present anything at this hearing for us. Okay. I also want to remind everyone, even though it will be announced at the end of the meeting, that starting next month we have revised our schedules. We will be having our hearings at 1 p.m. on the second Monday of each month. Is it one? Yes. Okay. So our next meeting would be on January 8th rather than at the end of the month. We also have some staff items today. Numeral 4, I mean numeral 5, we've got the Landscape Review Committee. The term of Mr. Hillemeyer has expired as of November 30th this year. he has agreed to serve another four-year term and do we need to approve approve that mr. works okay does it need to be a motion to reappoint him for another four-year term yes please okay so is there any discussion on the landscape review committee in this appointment of mr. Hillemeyer possibly for a second for an additional four-year term okay hearing none then I would entertain a motion I move that we approve mr. Hillenmeyer's additional four-year term for the landscape review committee Thank you, Mr. Needham. Is there a second? Ms. Whitman gives us a second. Is there any discussion on that motion? Okay, hearing none, then I will register our votes. It is approved, and Mr. Hillemeyer is another four years. well we're kind of done with everything do you want to check and see if anyone's ready to come back in That was a record hearing. Well, the question is, are you going to allow it to be a record hearing, Mr. Billings? I'll let the Homeowner Association who's here stand up and tell you whether they want to be heard or not. We've talked to them. I think we've addressed their concerns. Okay. I want to make sure they have the opportunity to say anything. Yeah. Ma'am, if you want to come up to the podium, and just real quick for the record, we are getting ready to address PLN BOA-17-86 White Haven's request for a conditional use permit and the applicant is here represented by Mr. Billings and so may if you could just put your name on the record for us real quick Robin Gall G-A-L-L thank you Miss Gall and do you have any at this point opposition to the application or are you satisfied okay thank you is there anyone else here on PLM BOA 17-86 there is one letter that I've distributed one letter of opposition yes okay well mr. buildings if you could give us a second if you wouldn't mind go ahead and put your name on the record and that you represent the applicant thank you mr. chairman and members of the board my name is Nathan Billings with Billings law firm I represent the applicant Beverly Cox is the Coast trustee of the Ivo white something something trust and and the other owners of the property were seeking a conditional use today under the agritourism ordinance it was passed for use of wedding and reception space for a certain portion of the 138 acre farm at 3515 richmond road thank you sir and the staff has recommended uh six conditions for its approval has your uh client read those and are they in agreement they have read them and we we are in agreement with all six conditions perfect well in that case if you wouldn't mind just give us two or three minutes let's read this letter and then we'll open up from discussion from the board unless anyone from the board would like to discuss with staff or mr. Billings right now okay all right give us a couple minutes sure I haven't seen the letter at I understand there's only one load submitted late yesterday from somebody on the east end of the property that is approximately 80 acres and a you know square to the east of this the homeowner association here would be actually the closer of that neighbor there to the sort of south of the property I have a PowerPoint presentation I don't know that it needs to be gone through today when the lack of opposition but I have a copy of it if you'd like to see it to just to circulate among the if you would like to enter that into the record and if you want to flip through it I would not object but I don't think the sensor to put up on the screen I've already given staff one but I just passed it up to the board they pass around while you're just looking at the letter that sounds great And then would you need to look at this letter, this email? They told me what it says. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Okay, we have had an opportunity to read the one email in opposition. Having read that and looked at Mr. Billings materials he has submitted, does anyone on the board have questions for either him or the staff at this time? I have a question, I guess, for staff. I'm always concerned about noise, especially in an open-air area, outdoor area, that is wide open and on a golf course-like property. I know that the default answer is well the noise ordinance will be observed and that's fine but did the staff what's the staff thinking about noise for an outdoor event on an open area like this for evening activities the overall size of the property was a factor as well as the location of the reception area that they've designated being sort of nestled into sort of an L-shaped tree barrier those were sort of the primary considerations and it's on the east end of the property I believe looking at the looking at the map so I I think I understand what the thinking is. The objections raised by the fellow who sent in the email, I don't have it in front of me, I don't know what his name is, but he was concerned about the same thing, about noise outside in an open area, and especially in the fall where you don't have leaves with lots of trees with lots of leaves on them so did the staff take that into consideration yes I think it's important to point out that that particular concern was from a property over half a mile away from the site yeah but I and I'm not relying simply on his his objection but he just raises a point that's valid for those that are closer that live closer than he does might be helpful for mr. Billings do we have any more about the type of entertainment that they're going to have at the event if we could also do we have a map of the property if you could put that up on the I'd rather see that than the presentation at this time if you could darken the light so we could see a little bit better you have Thank you. Mr. Nathan, I mean, Mr. Billings is going to point out, Mr. Clark, behind you with the pointer, I think on this screen. That way the audience can see it. Where the area that the facility will be located. So this is just an outline of the 130-acre farm as a whole. and the application seeks use of an area about in this area for the weddings and receptions. The email from the objector is, I can't remember if it's right here, right here, but it's actually about six-tenths of a mile. It's over 3,000 feet from the area in question. But there are homes that are closer to where you have your event planned. The fairways, which is the association represented here, is at this area here, and that's there's a tree buffer that comes down here and wraps around you can see it in this area on the map earlier this year the owner of the property Miss Iva White she actually still resides in the old homestead house located here and so her grandson got married on the property with a pretty big fanfare and afterwards they went down and talked to neighbors in the fairway that backed up to the farm and they didn't even know there was a wedding there and they did specifically to figure out okay what what was the impact on neighbors is it intrusive is it non-obtrusive like because they want to be good neighbors and what they found out is people didn't even know they had an event there you know the design of the site is I mean it's 138 acres there could be a lot of different places for an event space on here under the agritourism ordinance it was passed recently because of the location to this neighborhood here it Of course, all of this is commercial and office space, but really all in this area. The homeowners in this area here are the primary concern, and that's why this tree buffer along here we thought is helpful, and especially because if you think about it, there is no existing structure. In other words, it's not heated space. It's an outdoor space. So it will be either open air or tented. And if so, you're limited to the months in which you can have those events. I mean, it depends upon temperature, of course, but theoretically you're talking probably early April through sometime in early to mid-October, which of course are times when there may be periods at the beginning of that or end of that where the leaves are either just coming out or just falling off, but the vast majority of that time is when the trees are fully leafed. Mr. Billings, who owns the rest of that property? Does Ms. White own that whole block? She owns 100, well Ms. White doesn't own it, but it's now in a trust with other owners, It puts 138 acres. All of that. The report says southwestern. It looks like to me it's northwestern. It looks like it's northeastern. Well, it's the south. This is the corner right here. You're talking about where the event space would be? So this is north, true north right here. So it is the southwestern corner of that whole property. Yes, correct, but but not of the golf course This and this right here is an active cattle farm all of this right here And I don't know exactly talking about that whole property is Rather than just where the golf course is that for the ownership or for the you so just where the weather The site will be the site with the the application one of the conditions that staff has recommended is that we are in compliance with the proposed site plan and the site plan is there's parking in a main entrance from Yorkshire here and this is actually let me do this sir if I may there we go so this is in this diagram this is Richmond Road this is Yorkshire so this direction here is north there is an this is a blow-up of this side here this is the entrance from Yorkshire which is the primary access and exit point there's an emergency access it is not meant for primary one reason is miss white still lives in the house so the only reason that is used is for emergency purposes either for people to leave or emergency vehicles in there's an existing parking lot with 62 parking spaces there's an existing miniature golf right here this building right here is an existing golf pro shop with bathrooms and then this is the proposed event space this is the site plan that we would have to comply with so we can't could not unilaterally move the party space to down in this area or the north or this part of the farm and this there's a couple reasons that one is we want to close the parking lot it needs to be there for catering for delivery it needs to be close to the bathrooms but we have to comply with the site plan and that's where it shows the event space will be local well I apologize because I looked at that plan and and I was assuming that South Southwestered was talking about that block right there but it's not talking about that whole property that's correct so I was also not quite clear with if If there's an event going on, then there's no golf of any kind. That's correct. We cannot have both at the same time. One is just the safety of patrons. I mean, another one is just the over-parking issue. So because of that, it just made sense. You can't do both at the same time. I had one question about if there are issues with noise, it would seem like the Fairway neighborhood. Is it Fairway? Fairways, Lakeside. Fairways, Lakeside. Fairways, Lakeside. That would probably be most affected, but I think that could be mitigated really if you were, you know, I don't know how they set up weddings in that tent, but it, you know, facing north, I guess north or northwest, you know, that's all commercial, I guess, across the street. Yeah. So that would probably be the, you know, if there were issues, not that we need to assign sign that in here and I assume they would be neighborly if there were complaints that were started but that would be the another maybe absolutely and one of the staff conditions too is not just noise but also lighting and one of the staff conditions number four was lighting for the event shall be shielded and directed downward to avoid disturbing the surrounding properties whatever you think is reasonable in that regard I can't project the future, but I will tell you that if there's a noise issue on the property, it's going to come from Mrs. White, who lives here, long before neighbors, and I'm sure that her daughter will hear about that. Any other questions or comments from the board for the applicant or for staff? Okay, hearing none, the chair will entertain a motion at this time. I move that we approve PLN BOA 17-86 Whitehaven's request for a conditional use permit to establish a wedding events venue in an agricultural urban AU zone at 3515 Richmond Road based on the recommendations from staff and subject to the six conditions outlined by staff. Thank you, Mr. Needham. Is there a second? Second. I've got a second. bear with me here and please vote and I'm saying bear with me as I'm trying to get back to my screen there we go motion carries good luck with your project and have a great holiday in the last item on the docket today is BON 17-89 time to shine car wash request conditional use permit um are we still opposition okay well come on up then and introduce yourself for the uh record we'll take the applicant first my name is darren croucher i'm with thor red engineering and we're representing mike roper with time to shine okay thank you sir and um i'm going to go through real quickly before um i let um the opposition say a few words The staff has recommended approval, and they have recommended approval based upon six conditions. Has your client read those? We have, yes, sir. And you're in agreement with those? Yes, sir. Okay. And while the applicant is up, is there anyone who would like to have any questions of the applicant or the staff about the application at this time? I would just, I don't really have any objection just off the top of my head, but I would like a little bit about the application. the function of this because the diagram doesn't give give very much in terms of details is there are there individual stalls for people to use to wash their own own automobiles and then these is there a drive-through automatic or what is it and I it's some some explanation would help me if you don't mind yeah if we could let's throw up the site plan up on the overhead Thank you. and what i would suggest let's start with if you could give um just to give some directional where south broadway is um to give everyone a kind of an idea of where we're located yes sir so this would be uh south broadway heading into town um i think the old campbell house is we're down this way but This is the old Logan's Roadhouse site. So we're proposing to come in off of Harrisburg Road, South Broadway here. The facility itself is an automatic car wash. There is no stalls or self-washing at all. It is simply just a drive-through car wash. will continue the customers will pay in this area they'll continue through the building here and wrap around at this point in time they can either exit the property here as we have planned right now or they can come down into individual parking spots for vacuuming and they'll vacuum in their own cars at that point time they can continue to exit back out the property that away we've talked with Casey on traffic and there is some concerns of stacking here is there enough space for cars that visit our site that it may extend cars out on to South Broadway here obviously we don't want to do that and so some of the discussions we had with Casey here earlier was, can we move this back further or maybe over into the middle of the site to help increase stacking space for cars. I also recommended to Casey that as part through our continued review process that maybe we provide a transportation study as well. We don't mind doing that to indicate how many cars that we really have visiting our site. And so it seemed to be Casey said that that may be okay. It may not be her total decision on the amount of cars there, but we certainly didn't mind providing a traffic analysis associated with that. Continuing with that, Mr. Brown, who I believe owns some property right here. his building is here he had some concerns with noise that may be exiting our facility we had shared with him that you know we have no we understand his concern totally and our thought process is is either to add some landscape buffer along this way or sound buffering fence that may help reduce some of the noise that may you know continue away from the property certainly we would not want to increase any of the sound onto mr. Brown's property anyone else's and so we don't have a problem of installing some type of sound buffering fence or landscaping that would allow for that to occur and And so I think based upon that, and I certainly don't want to apologize if I put any words in anybody's mouth, but I think that's kind of how I understood where we're going, and we all seem to agree on that. So if you all have any more questions, I hope that understands. Show us exactly where the washing actually takes place. So the facility is right here. So as the individuals will come in, they'll enter into the facility here, and it'll be a car wash type facility. Then they'll exit this way and come around. I also thought where the exit is, I thought there was an Arby's next door. I think the Arby's is located at this location right here. There is a service road. Yeah. I believe back in that area. I drove it. I drove behind the Arby's. Back behind Arby's. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, now I've got a bunch of questions, starting with Casey, because I'm looking at two things. Number one is on nice days, car washes are very successful. And I know when I have been to Jeff's on Nicholsville Road, the traffic backs up into the service road, both directions, and you can't even use the service road. And I saw that one of the conditions is a final design being approved by you and your department. Is that going to be handled in that process if we approve this today? Do we feel comfortable that we're not going to have pile up on a major thoroughfare in Lexington? Yes, sir. That was traffic, same concerns. We feel confident recommending approval as a staff on the use of the car wash. The site, it's a large site. So, you know, I've let the applicant know that traffic, this current proposal does not provide enough stacking for traffic to sign off on. But there's plenty of room on the site to reconfigure it to provide the stacking. So that was the condition to the approval of traffic engineering. We were going to address changing the configuration. Okay. And just so for the board, if you look at number one on the conditional uses, it clearly says it's going to be construct and operate in accordance with this site plan as modified by our divisions of engineering, traffic, and building inspections. So this may not be the final what it looks like at the end of the day. Also, my next question would be. And number three addresses that as well. Correct. Now, my next question may be for Ms. Jones. There has been discussions now, and I'll let Mr. Brown, Peter Brown. Yeah, I'll let him address his concerns in a second, but it sounds like they've come to some discussion about some kind of sound, and that is not currently on this plan. And I don't know if engineering traffic and building inspections would not be addressing necessarily a buffering. Do we need to have that added into condition number one or another condition that somehow there will be some kind of buffering on that side of the property before we approve this? I think it might be appropriate to hear from Mr. Brown and see what their agreement or what persuaded you. So think about that while Mr. Brown speaks. Peter Brown, and as Darren said, I'm at the back right corner. My building is a long ways, and the rear is kind of where the exit is for the car wash, and I presume that at the exit they'll have huge fans blowing the cars dry. So my concern is that – so that's my building right there. So it backs up to the property line here. Right about here is where the exit of the car wash will be. and so I'm concerned that the exhaust fans will be so loud they won't be able to talk on the phone in my office or meet with clients, so that got me concerned. What Derek has said is that they will, I guess what I, my understanding that we would have a seventh condition, and the way I wrote it is APCA will provide screening on the property line with 389 and Lane Drive. That's my office address. that will reduce noise to baseline levels so that's that's how i thought we would do would resolve it okay that's okay with well i think we what i'd like to do is um at least did you guys write that out would you guys i wrote it yeah let's if we could have staff and miss jones eyeball that to make sure that it is going to comply with uh something that we can even enforce. We had prepared an additional condition should this come up that we're going to go ahead and put on the overhead. Oh perfect. Always surprising me. This is something that we had that more generally addresses the issue of the noise from the drying blowers doesn't specifically mention fencing or landscape buffering but yes that kind of thing could be included in this so the question is is this too general do we need to really specify exactly what kind of fencing how tall it's going to be exactly where it's going to be located but I think you don't make it specific but I think something needs to be added in here that says that it can be managed by an actual physical fence or by landscaping we haven't gotten that far in our discussions but they're willing to work with me so that I'm not disturbing my office with that I'm withdrawing my objection to the application and let me ask this may be for Miss Jones if we were to add this additional condition it is a pretty broad general condition I'm and we were to approve this application today I am presuming that mr. Brown could come before us or at least come to staff and say they're not complying with this because they don't have the proper landscaping that would take care of this issue at that point it would be an enforcement issue that may come back in front of us so maybe it's better to leave it more general without putting in fencing and landscaping or what what are your thoughts well a couple of things this particular item is also going to have to go through the planning process it's going to have a development plan that's going to have to be approved by the planning commission so they they will also be looking at things like buffering and those kinds of things so you don't necessarily have to have it it's sort of six dozen half dozen whatever way you want to look at it but it's sort of a situation that's going to be a zoning enforcement thing either way in other words if you all make it a condition and then it's not met specifically it can come back if when it goes through planning and and they make it a sign-off condition it could preclude the approval of the plan if it's not agreed to appropriately oh I think that it does have to have a development plan if I'm not mistaken is Am I on the wrong point? Okay. So it's going to have another process of approval where they're going to be looking at things like screening and buffering and the zoning ordinance as well. It'll start through that process next week at the technical committee. So, I mean, you can do it now. And, you know, if it's not complied with, then it'll be an enforcement issue. But it's also probably going to be addressed at the development plan stage so either way it if it's not addressed or complied with it's gonna come back it's a zoning enforcement issue thank you miss Jones so mr. Brown are you comfortable with the language that is up there currently yes I am okay if you're gonna if you're adding that as a seventh condition I'm fine well we it may we'll set the seat so if you want to take a seat for one second in the applicant would you be comfortable with that would the applicant become for that language yes sir okay so currently we have an application it's been recommended for approval with six conditions the first thing I was entertain a motion if anyone wants to make a motion to add a seventh or would we just move and add the seventh when we when someone moves for the if they're ready if you want to approve it you can approve it and add this is a seventh condition all at one time okay perfect all right now with being said does anyone from the board have questions for the applicant or for staff as I'm assuming we will one more question if I might miss Crowley went where does the traffic when when they exit the facility they're they're exiting behind the Arby's restaurant is that correct and so they come out on South Broadway at what's what street is that there's no there's no stoplight or anything there is there okay so so we are we comfortable with that the plan in terms of traffic which the the traffic X-ing that coming out on South Broadway is that is that a problem as far as traffic is concerned it's not a concern for traffic okay all right all right that's the answer just I had one question this might be for traffic we've disapproved drive throughs recently based on stacking what is the the basis for a car wash and stacking or is that dependent on a lot of different things it kind of is dependent on a lot of different things I've already looked at some existing car washes in town just to compare the stacking that's provided there that does work when when the discussion of a traffic study came up it's more how much storage they have then how many people they can put through it so you know at some point yes they would stack up and if this waits too long they would leave but we want to provide enough on-site that the car wash can function without impacting South Broadway so an actual number or a link I can't really there's nothing defined specifically now. In the ordinance it has five spaces for drive-throughs. In this situation that would not be sufficient because it's a different use. Car washes it takes a little bit longer to go through them. I think you need more stacking on-site. And the way that this reads to me is you have three lanes the way the cars are lined up one two three four five six six times three is 18 cars and do those cars go through that car wash side by side by side or is it individual so they're individual is as they go through there so it's kind of a funneling point that occurs we've and when I say traffic study that that's probably a bad that That may not be the accurate term, maybe a traffic analysis. We've got a couple of these other ones that we have done, where we've done some modeling to help ensure that the amount of space that is required for a stacking is appropriate on the site. And that's why I offer this, even on this site. We've got past history experience that we get from our client and then also a maximum volume that they can get through the facility at any one time. And so based upon that, we can help determine what the actual maximum stacking space is there. And generally those are based upon the peak periods that our client has observed over his history of operating these, which is generally during, right after snows, when there's a lot of salt on cars, people want to go to the car washes, and then some specific times during the summer, they see a lot of, their capacity increases dramatically, and so we have no problem of working with LFUCG LFUCG and traffic to help determine what that maximum space is. South Broadway is a very busy street and having cars back up may be a little bit different than some of our other car washes here in town because they have more access roads maybe onto their property where this one is accessing right onto a major thoroughfare and that would be a big concern of ours even from our standpoint and so working with traffic as this plan continues through the process of getting enough space key space on there is important to us too let me ask one more question if I might eat the form of collection of money is Is it automatic or are there attendants taking money at these? No. From what I understand is you pull up and there's kind of like an ATM machine, I think, where you would plug in. I think from my understanding is a lot of our client's business is done on a monthly basis where they can visit however many times they get a card that they just go. and it's not even like a credit card. It's more just a pull through. So I think they can put in physical dollars into the machine, but I think what they really like to do is have a monthly subscription, I guess, kind of to the operation. So it is automated? It is, yes, sir. One other question. Is there a turn lane, a right side turn lane into that property? because some some of it is there are there's a couple along there but not there yeah I don't think onto this property I think back up the way I think there's a if I recall correctly a place for buses to kind of pull there and and I think that may be used as a turning lane for other places down the way but not onto our facility on our property all right thank you I have a question for traffic to follow up Chad's question about the traffic on Broadway and the drive-throughs that we've come before us in the past. You know, and I remember one particularly out on, I guess it was Main Street, where the McDonald's used to be, and it was a big concern about the traffic there. I travel that corridor a lot and so I'm concerned about the left turning traffic in and out of that property without there being a stoplight at Legion and South Broadway. And so what's the difference between, you know, is it the generation of cars or what's the difference? It is kind of the trip generation as far as the number of cars coming and going from a site. And so with a fast food restaurant, that number is a lot higher. That kind of goes back to the stacking issue on this site, and that's why it's so important to traffic. Ultimately, I think the building will have to be shifted, and they'll probably lose some of those vacuum stalls, and one side will all be just for stacking and, you know, queuing to go through the actual building. Traffic feels confident that the site and the size of the site is capable to make that work. And ultimately, if the client isn't agreeable or traffic, you know, if we can't come to some agreement, then traffic won't sign off on the plan. But as far as the turning movements into the site and out of the site, that really, for me, for traffic, is a concern due to the numbers coming in and out. And I don't think the car wash, you know, they have their peak times, as Darren was saying, when it's pretty out. But they do stack up. And as long as it's on their site, that's not a concern for traffic. I just don't want them out onto South Broadway. and this is um i believe it's state maintained at this area and so i hope i'm not speaking incorrectly but they will also have to review this miss johnson a question for you i think since i've been on the board this is the first application i can remember in which we've been asked to approve of use without knowing what it's going to look like. Usually someone brings us a site plan and we have an idea of what we're voting on. In this instance, we'd be approving a use that, in my opinion, at certain times will have a significant impact on traffic in this corridor in which the funnel-out traffic would need to go down a service road and then two back roads. And I think the only light in the area to get out would be if they funnel all this traffic onto American Avenue over to Francis or to finagle it over to Waller. And those are the only two lights in this stretch to get the traffic back onto a major road. is that so i guess i have some concerns and also have the question of is it you know us approving a use when we don't really know what the impact is going to be so that's for ms jones well you know you know what the use is going to be you just don't know exactly what the facility is going to look like but i think it's a little out of the norm because it still has to go through the planning process as well and has to be signed off there so you know sometimes most of the time you all see it come here after it's been there but it's it's okay for it to come here first and when they get you know to planning they're going to tell them that they've been here and they have the approval to do the use but they're still gonna have to meet all the requirements in the zoning ordinance and get all the sign offs which include traffic in order to be able to you know until they have a final approved development plan that everybody signed off on they can't pull any building permit and I understand coming here first because it's cheaper more than likely or at least more economically less expensive than to prepare the development plan go through the process get a preliminary and then come to us you know for their preliminary be subject to our approval of the use but I mean personally I'm more comfortable with that process that way I know what I'm voting on rather than allowing the use that I'm not sure how it's going to look given some of my concerns about this being a major thoroughfare and we already have one car wash not what half a mile from here that is correct there's a theme lately of car washes we've probably had multiple development plans recently for car washes I guess I can't speak to the the success of them but yeah well I know the other most the other car washes are they have a lot more ability for stacking an entrance off of the major thoroughfare correct in this situation there's another option and this is where where the applicant, basically they'll be able to shift the building and provide adequate tracking for traffic. If that's not an option for them, the probably last option that they would like but traffic would approve is to change their circulation and enter on the access so then any backup is not on South Broadway, and then they would change the flow and exit onto Broadway. I mean, the concern is traffic trying to go to the car wash, backing up cars on South Broadway. So you either provide enough room on your site for them to sit and wait, or, you know, come in off a lower classified road. Well, I'm not comfortable today. i would not be comfortable today approving a motion just not that i'm saying in the future i would not approve a car what would not be in favor of allowing a car wash in this vicinity or on this property but i would not be comfortable with this current process of us approving a car wash before we know what it's going to look like in the impact um so i'm not sure how my other members would feel and if there would be a motion to deny but would it I don't we don't I mean what it from a procedural spot I don't want to keep the applicant from being able to proceed with planning and zoning of the development plan miss Jones what would be make sense for from that perspective I mean if if you deny it you're gonna have you're gonna preclude them from coming back to you under your bylaws for a year. There's a possibility it could be postponed. I don't know how that works with their plan, but that would preclude the prohibition in your bylaws for the same plan can't come back for a year. I'm not sure that Well, I know for a fact that I am not a traffic expert, and I don't think there are any other traffic experts that are members of the board. So I'm comfortable entrusting the final design to the Division of Traffic, as it says in one of the conditions. I think it's number one. And number three, those two conditions allow us to delegate to the experts the issues that are in their expertise. So I don't really share the same concerns, Mr. Chairman, as you do about our approval. So I'm comfortable with the process as it exists. I am a little curious why some applications get to us before and some after they've been through planning. I don't fully understand that, why some come to us first and some go to planning first. That's not a question. That's just a statement. Ms. Meyer, do you want to speak? Well, to your point earlier, I mean, can we continue this and the applicant moves forward with a plan that we might be able to see rather than postpone it? that that is an option you know what mr glover described that's as it's written on the plan is also an option you know if the concern is that you're you know that no one's going to be looking at the specific traffic concerns on this that is is not what's going to happen. When it goes through the development plan process, that's going to be addressed along with any number of other sign-offs. There's usually on the development plan process at least seven or eight regular sign-offs from different divisions that have to happen before it's approved, which are all areas of expertise, water quality, environmental services, solid waste, those kinds of things. so it is going to go through another approval process by people that are with specific expertise in certain areas but you know you yes you could continue it as well I just don't know what date certain to put on that to get it back in front of you I don't know that it'll be through the planning that there's no way to guarantee it'll be through the planning process Eugene it probably will not be through your part the planning process by your January 8th meeting is Ms. Jones, what does postponement mean? What does that signify? If you postpone it, potentially that means that when it comes back, you're going to have basically to rehear most all of it. If you continue it, you just kind of start where you left off. or you can just send it forward. You could even send it forward and just ask for the plan to come back and be put into the file after it's approved, the development plan's approved, so that there will be something in the file that shows what the final plan looked like going forward. In other words, if you all approve it based on the conditions that you have in front of you today where the other departments have to sign off as part of the development plan, then when it's finalized and that plan gets certified and they can pull building permits off of it, you could ask that the final plan be put back in this file so then it will be in this file so it'll be there for future reference too. That would be another option. Let me just say, I'm just not quite comfortable enough with it to vote for it right now, but I don't have any objection to the idea of a car wash there. But for some reason, it just seems like to me it's somewhat premature, and I just don't have quite enough information about the plan itself, traffic, and all that. and and it's not because i'm against the idea probably would be handy for me because i drive that almost daily maybe sometimes more than months daily but i do feel like there's we need more information whether that means postponement or what i hate to see it uh spend another year developing i don't think that's fair either can can i ask a question um are we saying it's that because it's not the final plan is that the concern we're expressing but because it is a proposed plan but it's just not the final because we have a they have a plan yeah that's their i guess their every member has their own concerns i have a concern with a car wash in general being located here okay but i also have a concern of approving a car wash to be here that i don't know exactly what it will even look like final plan at the end of the day um and the option you know options are approve disapprove postpone or continue i prefer continuance over postponements i don't want to have to us to have to rehear all the evidence again but um but as of today i would not approve personally i would not move to approve this um you know the the the question before us is is a conditional use permit, whether or not to approve a conditional use permit. And I think, like I said earlier, we leave the details of engineering and traffic engineering, building inspection, and other agencies to those people who have that expertise. I don't think we're supposed to be or intend to be all things to all people. We're simply the board that approves or disapproves the conditional use. And I am comfortable with leaving it to others because the application, if approved, requires that the Division of Engineering, Traffic Engineering, Building Inspection, all approve the final plan. And it says in number three, the final design of the parking access and traffic circulation shall be reviewed and approved by the Division of Traffic Engineering. We entrust to the planning staff the initial review and thumbs up or thumbs down on each applicant, and I'm pretty comfortable with leaving the final approval, final design, up to the Division of Traffic if there are traffic issues. So I don't share the same concerns, I guess, as some other people. On the staff, I trust traffic to deal with the traffic issues as they occur and come up with a final plan that satisfies them and satisfies the ordinance as well. There have been suggestions that the flow of the traffic might start on this smaller access road and exit onto South Broadway. that's one of maybe half a dozen different things that traffic might look at in their final design but I don't feel like we need to micromanage that that's a traffic engineering problem I mean that's just my feeling on that thank you Ms. Whitman. I agree with Mr. Glover. I think we're here to look at it as a conditional use. We agree with that. We have a planning commission and we have the staff that will work with them to come up with a plan that will be acceptable to the planning commission. That's their job. Ours is to determine whether or not this is a satisfactory conditional use. Any other comments? Any questions for staff or the applicant? All right. Well, in that case, it sounds like everyone is leaning toward having a vote. So in that instance, I will entertain a motion either for approval as is, approval with the additional condition, or disapproval, or any other motions you guys want to make at this time. I'll move to make a motion to approve BOA 170089, time to shine car wash. request for a conditional use permit to establish a self-service car wash in a neighborhood business B1 zone at 1250 South Broadway, Council District 3, based on the staff's recommendations of approval, and also subject to conditions 1 through 6 identified by the staff, and including a 7th condition to provide mitigation for the sound barrier. Thank you, Ms. Carter. I have a first. I second it. Ms. Whitman seconds. Is there any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, then please register your vote. I'm not able to vote for some technical reason because it won't accept my sign-in. well didn't you yeah i won't let him sign in so uh i guess we've got a you're the tying vote so i guess make yours uh known uh my vote is to approve the application with that the motion carries good luck with your project so fortunately we were able to go through some of the administrative items I we're going to have our next meeting which will start with our new meeting day and time which will be on the second Monday of each month the schedule for 2018 has been published I'm doing it show that up on the screen staff since we've already approved the app the schedule for next year do we need to show that this time or just announce okay so we do have a new schedule so our next hearing next month will be this Monday January 8th at 1 p.m. of course I would like to wish the staff and also all the city employees who otherwise help us a very Merry Christmas and Happy Holiday this coming year it's been a i guess an eventful year we've had some new members um i've enjoyed serving with everyone on the board this year and so with that being said we will adjourn our 2017 year thank you we have something else i have a question why did we change it from 1 30 to 1 when we know we have a member that's going to be on a tight schedule oh it's not Wednesday was Monday. It's okay. Wednesday was Monday. The reason we moved it to Warren is because Mr. Glover has, I believe, something in the evenings on Mondays sometimes, and this may help him get there earlier. No, that's not true. I would have preferred 1.30. I missed the last meeting where this was approved. My vote would have been for 1.30, but I was not here last year to vote about that. I apologize about both things. Yeah, and just point of order, it's too late anyways. Because it's been voted and approved. I don't think we're allowed to go back at this point. Actually, I don't even want to entertain that. It was bad enough getting us here. So it will be 1 p.m. on Mondays, starting on January 8th. Any other? Yes. What you would say, yeah. we made it just for you so we can start at 1 30 miss Whitman so if there's no other comments I will adjourn us thank you