Nothin' Cause I ain't been nothin' but bad So you better be good whatever you do Cause if you're bad I'm warning you You'll get nothin' But nothin' For Christmas But nothin' Music She's not trusting on an open fire Jack Frost nipping at your nose Yuletide carols Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music All right. We will resume the December 17th Courthouse Area Design Review Board meeting. And we'll resume with item four, which is the applications for authorization permits. It's case number 2-2019, Rugged Cross LLC, 117 North Limestone. I'll allow staff to go ahead and provide us with their comments. All right. This is a case that has been before us a couple of times, and hopefully today we will get through it. This is a request for 117 North Limestone crossings bar to replace the front window with a glass garage door and install a new awning, to paint the upper half of the building to match the lower half, to replace the upstairs windows, and to remove or reroute unsightly electrical wiring. So here are a couple of images of the current state of the building. And then here we have a rendering of what the applicant is proposing as far as the garage door. This is a building that was designated in our 2009 historic preservation downtown inventory as a contributing structure, meaning that it still has some of the characteristics of its time. It was constructed in the early 50s, but that it's not a significant structure and has clearly been altered over time. It's a three-story, two-bay brick commercial building. The nightclub crossings bar has operated here since 1989, and it does appear that the storefront of the building has been altered over time. I was not able to find any images of what existed before, but currently there is a slanted, angled storefront window that is in disrepair. So the applicant is proposing to change that. And we have shop drawings for the door, as well as some plans and elevations showing the new door. The applicant also would like to paint the upper level to match the existing lower level of the building. The awning, they have stated that the wood in the existing awning is rotten and crumbling, but they've not proposed exactly what they would like to replace the awning with, so that is a point of concern for staff. The horizontal line of that awning is something that is typical of the style of architecture, so that is something that we would like to keep in mind. And also replacing the upstairs windows, the applicant has not provided any shop drawings or plans for replacing those windows, so that's something that we would like to see. We are recommending approval of part of the application for the request to install an overhead door to paint the facade and to remove or reroute the electrical wiring that is currently on the facade. We believe that that is in accordance with the principles and design guidelines that are in our courthouse area guidelines. That recommendation is subject to three conditions, that the applicant secure their permits from the Division of Building Inspection, that they secure an electrical permit, and that they finalize the location of the utility infrastructure that is being removed or rerouted, should that be attached to the front of the facade. We would recommend that that come back to staff. It wouldn't necessarily have to go before the full board unless you all wanted it to, but we would like to have some say in where that goes. We're also recommending indefinite postponement of the remaining requests to install new windows on the second story and to replace the awning based on the lack of detailed drawings for those requests, and the applicant could come back and start the application process over again once they were ready to move on with that. All right, any questions for staff? All right, thank you. All right, at this time I'd ask for the applicant or representative to come forward. Hey, how are you? Hi. Yeah, the awning, the underneath of it is starting to rot away, so if it's important to keep it exactly the same, and I'm just thinking if we do get approval to do the garage door, that while they're doing that, it might behoove us to just go ahead and do the awning above it, too, and if it needs to remain exactly the same, there's nothing wrong with that, if that's something that you guys would require us to do. It's just starting to look a little. And if you want to postpone on that, that's cool, too. It's possible that we could do the garage door if you guys are okay with that. I don't know which parts you want to give us, or we have the right stuff to get approval for right now, or possibly. I would just like to ask for staff to comment on that, if the intention was. I think that if you were to repair the existing awning to maintain the aesthetic that the existing awning has, I think that that would be fine. I don't think we would have any issue with that. But if you were planning on doing a different style awning or something like that, then we would want to go through the process again and see those drawings. Okay. I would have one question on that as far as repairing the awning. The existing, I guess you would say, fascia of it now is kind of like a shiny tin, pretty beat up and dented. Would you all have a concern about going back with a shiny tin? I don't think staff would have an issue with that, as long as it were the same type of material. I think that that would be acceptable. I don't think we necessarily want to keep the banged up material, but replacing it with a like material. You wouldn't like to go back with a like material, though? Well, I'm not saying we're not open to other options, but anything else we would want to review. But something that would maintain the same aesthetic, we would be fine with you replacing with a like material. Okay. Awesome. All right. Any questions? I'll open it up for the board to ask questions. I would just say that the question about the material of the awning is a really specific question because that's directly related to the aesthetic of the time period in which the building was built. So switching that out for something else becomes a whole question because there are very few elements in the building that are part of that era, in particular those upper windows, which is also that secondary question. The breaking of the window into the four horizontal lights and really emphasizing the horizontal relates to that canopy. So the whole thing is part of a package, right, that's really about the aesthetic of that project. And that's where I would say, given that the so in the proposal I've noticed the intent is very clear what you want to do. And it's great. It's really related to kind of improving the streetscape in that area. One concern I would have is in the renderings that I see, in the various versions of the renderings, at certain moments it looks like there's a clear attempt to try to maintain that horizontal proportion of the upper windows and the thinness of the mullions that actually go into the garage door so that the two feel like they're coming from the same place. So I guess one concern I would have about the overhead door is that in some of the shop drawings, so like if you look at the elevation, the proposed front elevation, the proportions, yeah, yeah, there. So the proportions of that garage door are very light and elegant and feel like they belong to that upper story existing window. So then there's a question again where if you were to go back and replace those upper windows, then you'd want that relationship to be maintained in terms of the proportion and the lightness of that detail. And I think it might be a little difficult because I think those upper windows, are those steel or are they aluminum? Steel. Yeah, so that becomes a question, right? Because you can get away with thinner mullions with the steel that you couldn't do with aluminum. And so then when you see the shop drawing for the overhead door, those proportions don't look like the proportions in that drawing. The mullions are much fatter. It appears that there's a subdivision running vertically in the shop drawing for the overhead door that doesn't show up in this elevation. And so my comments are really related to the kind of discrepancy between the two. And I think the image that we see on the screen right now, which is the proposed front elevation, is in line with, I think, what we would want in terms of the, yes. And the black one that you have in your right hand, too. Yeah. Actually, yeah, it's on the slide. It's in the slide somewhere further down, but. Yeah, he has it up on the monitor from the slide. So if you look in there. I think the intent of that elevation is spot on with the intent of the guidelines that it feels like it's meant to be there. And it actually, in that elevation, most people would probably not know that it's been changed in any significant way. Right. But I think once you come down to the little details, which is what this project kind of rests on. If it becomes the kind of standard overhead door, all of a sudden the proportions are very different and it feels like a kind of found garage door attached to a more historically designed, say, a mid-century building. If that makes sense. I believe right now those upstairs windows have been painted over. Right now. And I really just wanted to correct to just replace them with that are not broken. So the one of the panels on the two windows on each side that have those are the ones that you're kind of referring to with being the same. I think those are the kind of defining characteristics of the building and that that proportion of those horizontals referencing then the larger horizontal, the whole band of windows that then ties in with the horizontal of the canopy is really kind of what other than the light of glass that leans out. Right. Which is what you're replacing. So I think in terms of defining characteristics of the building. Other than that, it's generic. Right. It's those kind of three elements. And so because you're trying to fix those parts, because those are the ones in the most need of repair, that's where the question comes up is how do you replace them so that they're kind of in the character of the building while still allowing you to improve the building because, you know, you want to maintain it and make sure that it lasts for a long time. And that's that's really the kind of that's the common relative to staff as well is that that's that's the kind of critical moment. Is it possible just I mean, just to replace the glass in those windows, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's what I thought we were going to go with. And maybe I didn't write that explicitly, but just so it's not correct. And it painted over and it's pretty thin. Because that's the perfect point. That really is the defining characteristic at this point of that box is those those windows. And that's where. So if you were to maintain the windows and replace the glass, as long as the glass is kind of like the glass that would be there similar in color and right quality, then you'd look at that lower overhead door. And now there's a real question about the relationship of the proportions of that to that. And we're trying to get it as close as possible, knowing that it's I don't know if you have the packet up. We don't have the shop drawing. Can you put that on? Yeah, because I think that's there it is. That's the shop. And that's the concern that he's raising is that looks chunky and out of proportion below. Yeah, with that center. That when you go back to the other elevation, that's not the same. You can see how much. And then when you when when he's saying, Yeah, there. I wish I had the actual. The mentions the numerical dimensions on those millions that it's showing in the shop drawing. Because I don't know if there's as much of a discrepancy. It really looks so chunky because it's all black and it has no division. Well, I think part of it, too, though, is there is no vertical in this rendering. And there is in the shop drawing. So we're not looking at it. And that's that was, I think, Martin, you're concerned. I mean, at least that's what you're raising, right? Is to honor because it is such a simple building. The things that stand out are these little details. And there's three of them that he's pointed out. The windows, the awning, and then it's going to be the garage door as a defining aspect. And that doesn't blend with above. There is no vertical element in between. And so perhaps taking that into account as a, you know, it gives the cues top, bottom, keeps it in. And it's not that they have to perfectly match. It's just that they have to feel like they belong together in a way. What is? One and a half on the million. Oh, it's a one and a half? So that is a pretty small. You do that at a one and a half per light, though. So it doubles up to be three. So there's a, there's a frame and a frame. And that's equal. That's equal to the two frames coming together is one and a half. So it's like three quarters of an inch for each one of those. Wow. And that I can see that. So my my only other thought, though, is that if you look back at what's existing there, you know, there is a vertical that's dividing it. So, you know, while I know that we would maybe want it to match up above the notion of. I think the only distinction there would be that once you have to fold it because it's a moving door, you introduce the horizontals. And then. So this is one of those things where it's like if you look at the current context, they don't match at all. Right. For me, I actually like the cleaner glass with not a ton of mullions in it. But if you actually look at what would replace it now, while the bottom and top don't align, the the top currently seems to be the focus and the bottom kind of goes neutral. Right. So it's not reemphasizing the horizontal. But once you introduced all these horizontals, now there's a direct conversation with that top part that I don't think can be avoided. And so then trying to have them trying to have them in the same language helps out. And I think that's where that center divider becomes a bit more of a. It changes the proportions, at least. On a separate question, how how kind of transparent or not? Are you thinking the glass will be like, will you be able to see into the bar or will it be. Yeah. OK. So, I mean, I believe we'll have curtains to draw depending on what's going on. Because from my perspective, you know, the one thing that I really like about this is the notion that you're that the bar would finally be activating the street. Yeah. It's been kind of dark and hidden and I think purposely because of the history of it. But, yeah. So that's the goal is to kind of open it up, make it more welcoming, especially because all those festivals are right there at the courthouse plaza plaza. But, yeah, I think most of the time you'd be able to see directly into the bar. There's we would probably have curtains to pull if we didn't if there was something that I can invent. We had that night. It may not be that family friendly or something, but. Big ideas are great. It's those little details that really start to matter. Right. I think the other thing is in some of the renders, it appears to be painted to kind of blend in with the new paint scheme, which I think also thinks pretty appropriate given that the current condition does that right, which allows that emphasis to really be on that those upper windows and the metal band. So I appreciate that when I see the renderings. It's just because there are discrepancies between the multiple items that I'm not sure which one is ultimately going to be there. Because that one makes a lot of sense, right? That seems to feel like the spirit of the project, and it's knowing that that upper story would eventually be painted out. With that said, I guess from a business standpoint, which I do represent, so I get to think from your perspective because I own one, you know. I'm just thinking of it from the aspect of the vertical beam. Is is probably there on a lot of garage doors. In the support, I would think I'm just thinking through it depends on the weight in the span. Yeah, I don't I don't doubt that. But I'm just trying to think from a material standpoint. And then secondly, go ahead. I think it probably needs it for the structure of the glass itself. If you didn't have that center being that was going down the down the center, trying to carry the load of that glass when it even when it's setting still it reduces. So the garage door that I've got right there, could you step a little closer to the microphone just so we're sure we're getting all of this? The garage door that you have there now is a 105 mile an hour rated garage door. You remove that center beam, you take away all structure. It would take it down to like a 3045 mile an hour wind. So anything that flies into it hits it when damage anything like that can severely do detrimental damage. I guess there'd be a question about how you sorry, there'd be a question about how you cap it. So most time you have the back mullion, you get the glass and then you get some sort of screw on cap right to assemble it. Can you deemphasize that vertical or have that be kind of structurally glazed so that you don't see the vertical and you just get a silicone joint at that point with the structure behind it? The only option that you would be able to do to remove that center is to go with a it would take away from the whole aspect of this door is to do a full vision garage door, which would make it all entire glass with all of the structure being behind it. So only thing you see is glass that would remove all horizontals as well. No. I'll just jump back in here to just as was pointing out. I mean, the current the current windows that are in place down there already have that structural element. I'm not sure that those are original or not. I can't tell. They probably aren't. And this is where we're getting into this very fine territory. I understand we have there's some I think there's some that's a little bit closer. I'm sorry. I don't know where they are. And I think there's like one of it right up on. I think that it's it's not in this presentation. I haven't got it. We've got it right overhead. We actually have it. It's in what they have on the screen. I think the only issue there is that because it's the function of that glass is changing. And because of the change in the function required to fold, which introduced the horizontals, there's no way that you can't not see those horizontals now related to the upper horizontals. And so center million or not, there's a context in which the decision is made. And I think that context is critical. And ultimately, that comes down to kind of the details of what that door is going to be. So if it's if they are as thin as you say they are, I think it'll be fine. It's just the renderings represent that. But then they don't represent the center million. Right. So we get one version in that. And then when we see the actual shop drawing, we get another version. And they definitely don't feel like they're an inch and a half total out to out on the glass. They feel like they're a doubling of the inch and a half.  So they feel like they're like three inches overall. And I think that's really different than those upper windows. And that's where that's where my comments are coming from. Right. Is that you just want to be as respectful of that as possible, which I think is the staff's recommendation. Other questions. A question about the wiring. What's the plan to hide the wiring or. That's what it's called. The masthead. That's kind of on the corner there. It just is. I don't even know that. What were you saying about the wiring on there? Well, see on the right. Right. You're looking at the masthead goes up. You know, that's it's got to be there unless they go underground, which they're not down here. It's going to have to have a masthead, but it's just got a rather massive wires coming down from it going into the building. It just needs to be cleaned up. It's like a cap on it or something like that. Just cleaned up. I don't like Christian, you know, so it's not all crazy. Yeah, it just looks kind of. I don't think it's going to be moving it off the face. Not really like moving it to make any changes. Am I incorrect in thinking that you were moving it off the face of the building? No, I don't think we're going to go to that extent. Just really just to make it look not as it just looks kind of crazy with the wire. So, you know, I'm not an electrician. So whatever they recommend, not moving that completely, just kind of making it look less on the side. Maybe so you're basically your goal is to tighten up the wiring. Basically, yeah. And I think, too, she was talking. There's there's some other existing wiring going to lighting on the facade itself. That's just kind of messy looking. So if if we're going to be there working. Right. And that fell under the staff's recommendation, correct? Correct. Especially any sort of cabinet or something going on the facade to enclose that wiring. I think we would want to see to make sure it wasn't some, you know, There won't be something. Yeah. And as far as the windows and the awning, if you're replacing what's existing with like materials and just replacing glass and just readjusting the awning so that it's in good shape, but it's the same material, same aesthetic. That is not something that requires the sports approval that falls under ordinary maintenance anyway. So that's worth noting. And then the paint. Is that something we need to wait on? We recommended approval of the paint subject to the boards. OK, OK. I didn't know if I needed to give you guys more. On that. Other questions. For me, this is a really straightforward project. And it's unfortunate that it's taken us this long to get to the process. But it really comes down to that overhead door and the detailing of that. That feels in character with the building. Right. I just said I'm excited to see it. See the investment in the building. It's needed it for a while. And it's. As you said, it's a prominent area. A lot of exposure. I think this is a great opportunity to upgrade it and make it make it even more inviting. So I'm excited for it. I think that takes care of all our questions in terms of emotion. Let's discuss that for a moment. We have some. We have recommendations from staff. That have some recommended. Recommended conditions. Are there any other conditions that we would have on it? Based upon this discussion, I think. We probably have covered them. I mean, I think we've discussed the door ad nauseum and. I think we're. It's up to you, too. But I think we can have a motion that probably. Encapsulates those conditions are just as. Honors the conditions provided by staff. And in that way, staff can. Review anything that comes back from you. You don't have come in front of us. Subject to the recommended conditions. So. You also, of course, have the freedom to add additional conditions. Or remove any of the ones. What about the awning? Because if they're going to go back. It stays the same. If it stays the same with like material. We had recommended indefinite postponement for the awning and the new windows. If they are only planning on replacing them with like materials. Then they could withdraw that portion of the application. And that goes both awning and windows at all. Correct. Yeah. If you aren't sure that's what you want to do. And we would go ahead and recommend the indefinite postponement for you to come back later. If you so desired to with changes. But you can always make a new application anyway. So sure. No, I don't. Withdrawing. And unforeseen something. Sure. I would like to keep the same. So then I think that if you will just state that you withdraw the portion of the application. Regarding the windows and the awning for the record. Okay. Yeah. I would like to withdraw the part of the application for the windows and the awning. As long as we replace them with like materials. Okay. All right. All right. A motion for the first part. Yep. So I'll let one of you two. If you did so desire or choose. Put forth a motion here for approval with. As long as they meet the conditions provided by staff. You can word it yourself. I guess it's just the question of the details. Right. So is that something that we could propose? They send you a cut sheet of the sheet of the final design of the door. And that way. Because I don't think it needs to come back through us. Autumn knows what she's doing. She knows the guidelines. I think if she's okay with it, then it would be fine. So I think you would want to add that as a fourth condition to your motion. You would make a motion. With staff's recommended conditions and a fourth condition that. Yeah. Okay. So I'll make the motion. I move to approve. What is this number? Do I need to say all that? Two dash 20 dash 2019. Under the conditions that. All the staff. Guidelines are followed and we add a. Which are necessary permits shall be secured. Division of the building inspector prior to installation. The overhead door electrical permit shall be obtained prior to the relocation of the electrical wires. And the final location of any utility infrastructure necessary to relocate the electrical wires attached to the front facade. Shall be submitted for review by the design review officer prior to installation. And then a fourth, which basically. The final approval of the overhead door. Will be after submittal of the cut sheets or the details of that overhead door to staff. All right. Do I have a second? All those in favor say aye. Aye. Motion. Motion passes. All right. Last. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. There's nobody in the public. I should have asked. Question is. Is it appropriate now for us to take care of the vice chairmanship? Or is that something that has to be moved through staff? I think we can do that. I think this board. No. No. You're good to go. It just says in the bylaws that we have to do it once a year. And it does say that any time there is a vacancy, it should be filled immediately. So I would say we are good to go ahead and do that. And then we can not do it again until next December. All right. Great. So with that, I think basically someone needs to put forth a motion here. I make a motion to nominate Martin Summers to be vice chair of the board. Second. All right. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. All right. Motion passes. You can't vote. You're off. All right. And with that, I don't think there's any other items outstanding that I know of. So I need a motion for adjournment. And a second. Second. All those in favor say aye, please. Aye. Aye. Motion passes. All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Take care.