You State public hearing of the Board of Artificial Review We appreciate all of you who are in attendance this afternoon The board was established by a zoning ordinance in 1958 Our first historic district was Gratz Park, and we now have a total of 14 historic districts The board which is appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the Urban County Council as part of the Division of Historic Preservation I've implied carpenter. I'm currently the chair of the Board of Artificial Review and this afternoon We have three other members of the board who are with us, and I would like to ask them to introduce themselves at this time Sir, hang on Derek Winfield Jim Dickinson the Board of Artificial Review is part of the Division of Historic Preservation as I said and the Historic Preservation office maintains a full-time staff to assist you with your projects We have several members of the staff who are here this afternoon some of whom will be participating in the meeting The Board encourages and recommends that applicants use the staff as a resource Historic Preservation office is located at 101 East Vine Street in room 220 Is our procedure to consider applications in the order in which they are listed on our agenda? In each case we will have a presentation by the staff and we'll hear any additional comments from the applicant The board will then ask questions or make comments regarding the application and then hear comments for many other interested parties in the audience And then the chair will ask board members to enter a motion if you're in the audience this afternoon, and you have an interest in a particular Application and would like to speak to the board we would ask you come up to the front and speak into the microphone I'm giving us your name and address We would also ask that you sign in on the sign-in sheet by the door so that we can accurately record Your your name and your other information for our minutes We have a large number of items on the agenda this afternoon when we get to the section dealing with the certificates of appropriate and serious certificates of appropriateness applications I'm going to ask that if you do want to speak to the board this afternoon that you limit your comments to three minutes because we have 14 items on the agenda this afternoon, and we would like to be fair to everyone and give everyone a chance to Talk to us in a reasonable time period This afternoon we have a number of items which have already received staff approvals And I'd like to note the following staff approvals before we begin our review of applications There are certain items that the staff can approve eliminating necessity for all applicants to appear before the board There are a total of 30 Items this afternoon that have already received staff approval, and I will have to read these into the record We have several approvals in Aylesford 217 Arlington Avenue renovate structure landscape the side yard 317 Lafayette Avenue renovate the front porch 134 Ransom Avenue replace skylights 137 Ransom Avenue replace dormant material and 162 Ransom Avenue renovate structure after the storm In Belcourt a number of approvals 116 Forest Avenue renovate the structure 152 Forest Avenue repair walk and driveway 619 Boonesboro Avenue remove damaged tree 615 Russell Avenue replace concrete steps and 629 Sear Avenue replace the fencing several approvals in the Northside Historic District 263 North Broadway remove a tree 432 North Broadway renovate structure after the fire 611 North Broadway repair porch replace sidewalks and Hampton Court install markers and light fixtures in Grants Park two approvals 252 Market Street repair box gutters in 239 North Mill Street tuck point wall repair walks and steps install handrails Again some other cases in the Northside three others 418 West 6th Street renovate the porch 431 West 3rd Street tuck point chimneys 472 West 3rd Street repair porches in the seven parks Historic District three approvals 215 Arcadia Park renovate the side porch 300 Arcadia Park replace stoop and steps and 200 Barbary Lane remove garage doors and repay the driveway In the western suburb two approvals 592 West Short Street replace a rear window 601 West Short Street install plaque and sign in South Hill several approvals 304 West High Street renovate the structure 300 West Maxwell Street replace windows 380 South Mill Street rebuild chimneys and 371 South Ever Street replace the curated trees and finally in Woodward Heights two approvals 852 West High Street site renovation and 303 medicine place replace the fence so there are as I said a total of 30 Applications which have already been approved by the staff These applicants already have their appropriateness and are hopefully proceeding with their work I want to compliment the staff on their hard work to make approval of this large number of items really possible we will now proceed to the certificates of appropriateness applications We have a few items on the agenda this afternoon where the staff has recommended approval or in some cases Approval with a few conditions, and we're going to go down the agenda and see If the applicants who are here this afternoon are agreement in agreement with the staff recommendations if they are we can immediately approve the items without having a public hearing and If they're if the applicants are not in agreement, then we will hear the cases But we will go down the agenda and to see where we go In Constitution Street Which is item number one on our agenda? 114 East 3rd Street install a front yard fence is that applicant present? Okay Did you give us your name and address sure I'm Lucian Dearborn we're for Hinkle Denmark at 1116 Manchester Street, right? Have you got a chance to read the staff report? Yes, sir. I have are you in agreement with it? I think that I understand it a couple of the issues that they are the recommendations They're making for us to change I Have a couple of questions about and would like to get your approval on why don't we come back and talk to gotcha? Okay, we'll be back to you in a few minutes. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you In Belcourt 615 Russell Avenue remove the door close and opening is that applicant present? Okay, I believe the staff has recommended approval Yes, I submitted are you in agreement with that? I'm sorry. Are you in agreement with the staff recommendation? Yes, sir. I am. Okay. I don't think I asked you your name Yes, Steve. So it's I live at 615 Russell Avenue. Okay, very good Okay, so you're in agreement? Yes, I've read it. No, there's anyone in the audience who would like to make comments about this application Okay, hearing none. The chair will entertain a motion Mr. Chairman a move for approval and issuance of the CUA for 615 Russell Avenue subject to the single condition listed in the staff report second any discussion All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye Motion carried. Thank you very much. Thank you okay, the Next item on the agenda is in the north side historic district 424 West 6th Street The application is to move an opening and The applicant is here, which my name is Phil points And I think the the wording is fine. I agree with it. I would have said that except I did not know how to say it All right, so you accept the recommendation staff, okay, very good Is there anyone in the audience who would like to make comments about this application? Okay, hearing no comments the chair will entertain a motion Mr. Chairman for approval of the COA for 424 West 6th Street subject to the single condition listed in the staff report second any discussion Okay, all in favor of the motion signify by saying aye aye motion carries, and thank you so much Okay, the next item on the agenda 409 East High Street the application is to change the roof pitch. Is that applicant present? Okay? If you had enough Read the staff report. Yes. Are you in agreement with it? I am. Okay, very good I believe the staff is recommended approval as submitted. Could you give us your name address? My name is Tim majors. I live at 490 stop. Okay. Okay fine. Thank you anyone in the audience Want to make comments about this application? But hearing no comments the chair will entertain a motion Mr. Chairman a move for approval and issuance of the COA for 409 East High Street Is there a second second any discussion? All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye aye motion carried. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much The next item on the agenda is an Ailsford historic district 217 Arlington Avenue The application is to install and extend a parking area is that applicant present? You would If you would give us your name and address, please. I'm Gina Taylor, and I live at 217 Arlington Avenue The staff has recommended approval with the condition that you put into planning and install some curbing Are you in agreement with that? Yes, I am Amelia, and I spoke about your what she thought your recommission Recommendation, I think it will look much better that way. Okay. Thank you. Thank you Is there anyone in the audience who would like to make comments about this application? Here So, all right hearing no comments Other than those that were just made The chair will entertain a motion. Mr. Chairman a move for approval of the COA for 217 Arlington Avenue Subject to the two can list two conditions listed in the staff report Second second. Okay. All in favor the motion signify by saying aye. Aye Motion carries. Okay. Thank you so much The Next item on the agenda is in the South Hill Historic district at 239 North Limestone Street That is to pay the utility strip. Is that applicant present? No, he's not he's not okay the motion was to disapprove I think we should skip over this and see if you should appear and we'll come back to this in a minute Okay, the next item on the agenda is at 150 Forest Avenue Replace deck door and fence does that happen? Yeah, do you want to come forward Would you please give us your name and address yeah, Robert Trujillo 150 Forest Avenue Okay, if you had a chance to read the staff report, yes, I have. Okay. Are you in agreement with it? Yes All right. Very good Is anyone the audience who would like to make comments about this application Hearing none. The staff will entertain a motion Mr. Chairman a move for approval and issuance of the COA will 150 Forest Avenue Subject to the single condition list and the staff report second. Okay, all in favor the motion signify by saying aye. Aye Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Nice project Okay The next item on the agenda, is it 620 West Short Street Western Suburb Historic District. Is that applicant present? You got a chance to read the report I have yeah The staff approved Some of the part of the application and recommended disapprovals of the other part I don't know if you would like for us to talk about this or not. Okay, I'd like to talk about Well, we'll come back to you. Okay. Thank you The next item is at Seven Parks Historic District 237 Barbary Lane paint masonry structure. Is that applicant present? Okay No, okay. That's a disapproval. Also, we'll come back to that in the event that the applicant should show up The next item in the On the agenda item number 10 in the Northside Historic District 263 North Broadway the application is to construct a carport driveway and fencing and Are you the applicant? I am. Yes. What is your name, please? Seth Brewer and Your address, please. 263 North Broadway. Okay, have you had a chance to read the staff report? I have are you in agreement with it? I am. Yes. Okay. We have one letter of objection. I think from a neighbor I don't know whether those people are here or not. They're not. They're not. Okay, okay All right. I could address the issues. I already know what they are if you like and I've talked with the folks that live in that house now Well, the staff is recommend essentially recommended approval, you know, it's As noted in the report, so I don't know if it's really necessary unless the board would like to hear about that Okay, I think we're I think we're fine with what the staff has recommended. Excellent So any one of the audience here to make comments about this? application Hearing none that chair will entertain a motion Mr. Chairman move for approval for 263 North Broadway subject to the two conditions listed in the staff report second Okay Any discussion? All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye motion carried. Thank you very very much All right The Next item on the agenda is in Belcourt 609 Boone's barrel Avenue. The application is to construct a deck. Is that applicant present? The staff is recommended approval with the with conditions concerning the installation of lattice at the bottom of the deck and also modification of the design of the railing I Guess we could either Approve this now or come back to it and in the event that the applicant should show up. What's your pleasure? We already have a few others to come back to I'd say let's just come back to it come back Yeah, okay fine we'll pass on that. Okay the Next Item in the agenda is in Woodward Heights 347 Reno Street The application is to replace a step and change the front porch material. Is that applicant present? No, no run out of applicants. Yes Actually this this case we should come back to this also because this was There were some problems with the application from the perspective of the staff and they were recommending Tabling it So we'll come back to that the Next item on the agenda is in item 13 in the western suburb history district 647 West Main Street The application is to demolish an outbuilding and construction addition. Is that happen present? Yes Yes, I think if you if you read the staff report, I think the board was the excuse me the staff were Essentially approved your application, but they wanted the fence to be That's that's sort of a standard thing You're the first to acknowledge that Down the property line though, because there's two different fences I Have to run an 8-foot fence down the property line to match the existing fence that's on it Betty there gonna be problems That's what man him talked about, okay The structure that's coming down had is a full time. I'm sorry, okay Okay, so that would so we're we're all in sync on this All right, anyone in the audience care to make comments about this application Hearing none the chair will entertain a motion Excuse me. Mr. Chair. I move for approval and issuance of the COA for 647 West Main Street subject to the single condition listed in the staff report Second okay any discussion all in favor of the motion signify by saying aye aye motion carried Thank you, sir. Thank you so much And let's see the last Item or the or the next item on the agenda, pardon me item number 14 in Belcourt historic district 116 Forest Avenue The applications to construct a garage and paved areas is that applicant present No Mr. Chair, I Believe this case has seven conditions. Yes, I would I Would suggest us putting this at the end of our yeah our list and cycling back to the beginning It sounds good to me. All right, very good. Okay. Well, let's go back and I think the very first Application on our agenda this afternoon and item number one Constitution Street historic district 114 East 3rd Street install front yard fence. Mr. Dearborn has some something you would like to discuss with us regarding that Yes, sir I'll start with the beginning here The first item the way we were planning on Constructing this rod-iron fence so that it would be inset and wrap around a couple of decorative concrete planters That are a little modern. It just I thought we thought it would add to the streetscape and Kind of help set up that entry You know as well as using those rod-iron posts. We've looked at doing it straight across, but we just felt like it wasn't going to be Nearly as attractive. I mean it mainly because the front yard is kind of shallow there We're not really doing a ton of heavy planting. It'll be mostly ground cover and things there So I think that we were just trying to add a little bit of element of color there to punctuate the entrance You know that being said I don't know how you all feel about that also over on Mulberry Lane There's a there's another similar instance where I mean Mulberry Hill Sorry on limestone where they did the same inset, and it's a new fence that just probably went in I don't know in the past year or so so There is an existing precedent there Okay, so you're you're basically asking that we Allow you to inset the the fence pretty please yes, right and then Then there were some other comments that the board made about the stepping stone size Well the stepping stones right now, I mean, it's a typical size that we use being 18 by 36 They may actually go in 18 by 30. They're going to be in a bed of ground cover Which would be pachyceandra that's probably going to grow in and cover a lot of that stone So it's not like they're going to be sitting in a bed of mulch They will be You know a natural stone And you know I think that going down to 24 by 12 is that's I think that's going to be way too small especially if You have to space them You know tighter. I like to keep them on a more of a comfortable tread It's in an area. That's not going to get a lot of use so if we do have to reduce the size you know I don't have a problem with that, but Mainly, I think it's just an aesthetic thing and are you okay about reducing the height of the fence? The height of the fence on the side well the reason we went with eight feet is because the wall that they've built is eight Feet and that was approved and so we were just going to continue that height all the way to the corner of the neighboring building That's pretty much the only reason I said eight feet because it was already eight feet there And we would just be coming off a brick pier And it's also for security. I mean, I think I can climb over a six foot high fence and They already have problems with people getting in their basement, so really it's just a matter of giving them that separation And how about the electrical services no I understand that electrical services. We've always bury our our utilities It's all going to be low volt and the lines are always under the mulch so so basically you're What you're concerned about is the items one two? and Three I guess the height of the fence the inset and then the size of the stepping stones. Yes, sir okay, and Anything any other comments you'd like to make before we there's one other thing and I'm this is something that came up since we are You know submittal The neighbor the the clients had asked that we replace the front walk It's been cut and repaired poorly by previous contractors also the curb on the street is beat up and needs to be replaced So it we would be going back with broom finish concrete, and it would just be a basic repair To a dilapidated sidewalk, so we're not proposing any new materials there it's maybe something that I don't know if I need to ask for an amendment to the Tip for your approval, or if we need to address that a later They need to do is just to go back to the staff and get staff approval approval if you replace I'll do that the same material, but it's definitely not part of your application this afternoon right so since it wasn't advertised Sure, we really can't take action on it gotcha. We can we can certainly consider the other things which are here this afternoon, okay? All right Let's see if there are any questions or comments from the from the board members Terry Just talking about the first three items There was a case that came through here I believe early last year that had a very similar design on the on the front of their house where they wanted to inset some rod-iron fencing and it was disapproved and I think they may have even used the one over on Mulberry Street as reference gotcha But it was disapproved because the adjacent Properties did not have the inset and to keep it consistent with the rest of neighborhood The board decided to agree with staff and make it straight in the same plane So that's probably why the recommendation was made and I probably would tend to agree with that keeping all things equal throughout the neighborhood Steppingstones being reduced. I don't have a problem with that. I think made a pretty good case about the infill and Depending on the maintenance those probably be reduced in visual acuity and As far as the height of the wood fence I have to see some further evidence Before I could approve vote for approval of that because Typically, we don't permit anything over six fence historic Neighborhood wise citywide. So there have to be some very compelling evidence to do that. Just not just matching what is adjacent. I Want to interrupt this just for a second, I Think I left my My thought process in the Virgin Islands where I was a couple weeks ago, and I didn't ask the staff to To make comments about this. I'm really sorry. So would you all like to address? This Sort of well at this point you're well enough into it that unless you have questions of the staff Okay, we're good with where we are But we will be glad to show you images and so forth. Should you need them? Okay, okay All right Any other comments, that's all comments. Oh, yeah, mr. Wingfield Thank You, mr. Carpenter, I Hate to disagree with mr. Hanley and the staff I find that the Your inside entry To be within the guidelines, I don't think it's visually dominant. I think it's actually Adds interest to both the streetscape on the site and Think it's rather well done Stepping stones, I think that The proposed size also is not visually dominant to the site and would be appropriate and within the guidelines With regard to condition number three with the wood fence You reference that the structure That it's going To connect to is eight feet high. Do you have any photographs of that? It's a new wall that was built in the past year and was it had to have been approved You know because it was a new new construction as part of the figure their backyard And You can almost see it in that picture there's a guy standing next to it in the very very back I don't know And that post that you're seeing in the middle is actually a support post for the landing on the top step there Thank you very much since those photographs are now in the record, I think it might be appropriate for us to consider Allowing an 8-foot wood privacy fence from the existing wall towards the Facade plane and then stepping it down to 6 feet for the remainder of the fence Is that something you'd be interested in entertaining? Sure We'll see what the rest of the board members and the staff feel about that But I think that was my inclination along the property line Maintaining eight feet and then where that it actually comes across the line there would make it six and that would be the wrought iron At that point, okay And then the rest I think everybody All right, thank you, mr. Dickinson Well, this is where I wish I had walked the street because sometimes I get a better feel for how that inset would look My initial impression is to agree with the staff. I think the inset might be too visually dominant I know you want to pop out but at the same time it can overwhelm and that's a very shallow yard that you're dealing with I think Derek may have come up with a good idea for the For the fence conundrum. We don't typically like More than eight foot but given How narrow that alleyway is and how basically the fence is going to be lost between the two walls of the buildings anyway, I'm not I Think this might be an exception Especially given the security concerns on Third Street. So I'm inclined to agree with Derek on that the stepping stones It's Almost like this with me and sometimes what can look big and on paper can actually Be fine as proposed. So I'm not really Concerned with the size of your stepping stone. I don't think there will be that overwhelming It seems like a very busy design for a relatively small yard Maybe it's just looking busier on paper than it really is and Do you have a comment on that? It just seems to be a very busy looking Design in some respects. Is it or is it going to be? You know landscaping should blend in it shouldn't, you know, grab your attention and make you lose sight of the house pretty traditional I mean, there's really not a lot to it besides boxwoods and ground cover and a few You know perennials ferns, whatever but as far as the you know, the hardscape the the stone Edging underneath the wrought iron and you know the wrought iron itself. I think that it's it's actually pretty stripped down I mean, it's it's a really simple design Yeah, I'm inclined to think that straight designs can be better than the inset to be honest with you So this may be a split decision with this board on this particular case That's all the comments I have. Thank you I agree with Mr. Wingfield's comments. I like the Inset fence. I think you've done a very nice job with that and I think from a purely practical point of view I think when you think about the size of your foot being probably 12 inches or in that range It seems to me like the larger stepping stones would be Would be just more practical and I don't really find them to be visually dominant. I like the suggestion that Mr. Wingfield made about the height of the fence because I think that that resolves the the issue and without necessarily compromising our position I think that this is an exceptional situation rather than a typical situation so I can go along with that and then the Concern about the lighting electrical things which the staff have mentioned. I think you're in agreement with that So that's kind of where I stand on it And So I do like the the inset I do think it adds some interest to the to the street So that's just where I'm coming from. But thanks once again. I'm just one member of the board So we'll see how everybody feels about it the staff like to make any comments since I didn't let you do that I'm really sorry. Well, I think that Relative to the recess in the front fence situation It is the staff's recommendation reflects consistency as Mr. Hanley referenced relative to the character of the fences up and down the street and Practically speaking this has nothing to do with design They tend to become trash collectors when you get these little pockets now I'm not suggesting that your folks aren't going to be, you know, always taking care of that and that's not what's before this body But that's just an aside But just for clean streetscape sidewalk periphery Boundary definers the straight is more in character with the neighborhood and the steppingstones Now hearing more of your discussion about that. I Think it could be either way from the staff's perspective But particularly if you're going to grow ground cover that is going to come on to those edges that would help that So that's a good good thing. If the board is inclined to to go that direction and the fence situation We do as staff Barring some very unique situations never recommend over the six-foot in accordance with the guidelines Part of it just so that we don't end up with rear yards that are vertical boxes And I will leave to the board your take on what action to take on that But the staff would stay I think with their initial recommendation Martin do you have any comments? As far as the fence we were looking right here that this is a six-foot wrought iron fence and Our thought was that the wood the eight-foot guy was going just go between this two points right there So if the eight foot is there then this Ought to just be gone because it's anyone that has access through here it looks like they would come all the way down here if if this is six and then to go to Eight-foot wood here and That actually goes a lot farther down Sure No Underside Martin, would you grab that mic so that we can hear you all better, please? So from this corner of the neighbors building the eight-foot The wooden fence would start there and come all the way down to right about here where the the stone or the brick Pier is so this would be wood all along the property line and then adjacent to This this support pillar would be a couple of small Panels that would be six feet tall in wrought iron and then the gate would be wrought iron as well in that that single spot there The main purpose being that even though there is a gate there They're just afraid of Going down there to service their basement and to find somebody sleeping in this in the stairwell, which is actually Pretty exposed on all sides right now. I Guess it's kind of a difficult. You know situation to have to explain without looking at the photos or being there, but We felt that was the best option and if it has to be a six-foot wooden fence You know, it doesn't make much difference to me so I don't know it's worth arguing about All right, I'd rather have just the inset and be happy Any other comments I assume that there's no one sitting in the audience who would like to make comments about this proposal Okay, all right any other comments from the board, okay well We have some differences of opinions this afternoon, I guess The chair will be glad to entertain a motion if someone would care to do that Mr. Chairman, I move for approval and issuance of the COA for 114 East 3rd Street With the modifications to the staff recommendations, I Move to strike condition one I find that as proposed at the fencing and gate along the public walk With the inset is submitted It's not visually dominant and compatible with the Historic property principal accessory structures referencing guideline 13 to and 13 three I Think that's good for that one. I think that Staff and this are you withdrawing condition two or do you want me to just move to strike it? With regard to the stepping stones It'd be the cleanest for the board to Take what action relative to the staff report they think is appropriate. Thank you. Miss Kerr I find that the stepping stones as proposed Aren't in accordance with the guidelines again referencing Guidelines 14 to with regard to paved services being compatible surrounding sort of properties principal accessory structures And the new paved services guideline 14 5 the new paved services being not just visually dominant truism suggests false sense of history I find that as proposed the the payers do not violate either of those guidelines And with regard to condition number three that the height of the wood fence be reduced to six feet given that the There is an existing element on the site that is eight feet tall That the As proposed as submitted that the The eight foot tall would privacy fence be allowed to occur And not beyond the the That wall plane the primary the wall play next to the Basement entrance there I Find that the as proposed again given the existing condition of the eight foot high wall that the the new fence referencing guideline 13 and three about boundary definers is not visually dominant and Retaining the final two conditions about electrical service light fixtures So you're you're essentially? Start striking one two and three correct or you're modifying three I guess actually to Modifying three slightly so I guess that was it is being retained so there just be the three conditions Is there a second Okay, there's no second, okay, but someone like to make a different motion. Oh, let me try Mr. Chairman with respect to 114 East 3rd Street, I would like to approve the issuance of the COA subject to Staff condition one the fencing and gate along public walk be all the same plane no inset at entry walk Condition to be stricken Condition three the height of the wood fence be reduced May stay at eight foot provided that and I'm not clear where we can get that boundary line Subject to final approval by the staff with respect to our conversation today as to where it should step down with that work And that we also can keep conditions four and five Which would be the local service to all light fixtures is to be run underground And all light fixtures are to be so designed such that no Illumination spills over to the adjacent property street or alley with respect to condition number three I think we can make a limited exception Given the height of the walls and given it's rather unique location between these two buildings Subject to staff working out a way that we can step it down as it approaches the street Like this to describe I'm trying to say but your intent on Location in which to step that down is consistent with What mr. Wingfield has his motion? That's correct staff is glad to Interpret that I just wanted to be sure we were on all on the same page And you can you can run the videotape as we're running our hands down to show What we're trying to say there anyway, that's my motion let's try that Okay All in favor the motion So to be clear if you're confused you didn't get your inset, it's rather be a straight you're saying Okay, I'm sorry Is there are there any Negative votes nay, I'm sorry I Guess if I vote no, then I guess the motion dies I suppose I Guess the I guess the point of contention is really that My only purpose I mean I kind of like the from a design standpoint I like to have the inset But In the five years that I've been here on the board one of my prime goals was to have consistent consistency throughout the neighborhoods all across the historic districts and I know it got kind of heat kind of heated from the other neighbor which was only a few doors down because he couldn't have his insets and To go ahead and approve it here. I Just I just find it inappropriate and I'm gonna have to stick with it Also, I don't know whether anybody's thought about it, but I see that the orchard bowl on the This here is that what was going to go in the end On a stone plinth and then it would have, you know, probably some green little ropey around it. Talk about security, you know, we're worried about people sleeping on the steps and everything. With these outside the fence, I think there would probably be a little more of a security issue with those things disappearing over time. They're about 500 pounds apiece. They take ATMs out of bags and stuff, so I just think that those would probably disappear. But I'm going to stick to my guns on this one because of the quality issue. Although, in fairness, that street's really beginning to come back. I mean, it really has stepped up considerably over the past 15 years, thanks to work by your company and others. Absolutely. I might have to jump in here. I'm stuck on this, too. I just don't like insets. I think they are trash collectors. I think maybe you need to talk to your client about this one because we're sort of stalled here, I think. Sure. The problem that I really have, given how narrow that alley, how narrow those front yards are anyway, is you're really making it almost too gentrified, if you will. A straight line fence is much more appealing than trying to do a little gentrification. And it's really not consistent with the overall look of that street anyway. So I'm stuck on this one. I can't budge either. So. I'm happy to conform to whatever you all suggest. The clients are really easy to, you know, I'll redesign it and reposition it so that the bolts will be on the inside. I mean, if that's what needs to happen, then we can do that. Having said that, and, you know, to represent my clients and just to mention what a, you know, great job that they've done pumping money into the neighborhood and the, you know, I'm sure that they're a little bit upset about the fact that, you know, there's a temporary tent across the street. And they're really doing a lot of things in the neighborhood, but at the same time they're seeing other things that get approved that are not nearly as aesthetically pleasing. And I think that they, you know, that's pretty much all I have to say about that. Jump in on the tent. That's an ordinance issue. That's not something that we have any control over. And it's the way that ordinance is worded. And I don't like it either. Right. At all. If there's some way we could disprove that thing, we would. Yeah. Yeah. The tent situation cannot be reviewed by this process because it is being legally presented as a temporary. Sure. Insertion. And that is what prohibits this process from being able to review it. So you might let your clients know that. Yeah. Not a problem. As far as me being a designer and trying to push for a little bit of something different, that I've seen, you know, less than a half a mile away from their house, you know, and just trying to really create something that's really pleasant for an area that's blossoming and really booming. And you see a lot more people trying to pump money into houses that normally would be torn down. You know, I think that I'd leave it to you guys to make that decision as far as. I'm all for consistency, and I understand and appreciate the point of view. However, I do think in this particular case, this is very nice, and it seemed to me that, you know, if it's an exception made to the norm, it's a good exception. That's where I was coming from on it. Thanks. So, I mean, I hate in a way for you, if your clients agree that they don't want the inset, then I guess it's going to be necessary for him to come back anyway, isn't it? I was just trying to think of is there a way for staff to finish this up, depending upon your client's wishes. It would necessitate your all's making a motion that empowers the staff to do that with a directive as to options. Since you're at 2-2, this could not be possible. But that's the only way the staff would be empowered to respond and issue a permit dependent upon what the property owner decides to pursue, if indeed they decide to revise at all. Well, I guess this is a question for our counsel. If the, since the board is hung, I guess the motion has not actually failed or hasn't. I don't believe it failed if it has not been passed. You know, hung means that you didn't pass it. Okay. So we could put forth a new motion then? Yes, you can. Okay. With that, we issue a COA for 114 East 3rd Street. Subject to the, if I could rely on the previous discussions for justification and skip that little part. Okay. We've made note through each one. Okay. So you can. With regard to one, should the client, should the applicant choose to remove the inset fencing that staff be allowed to issue the COA? Should the client, should the applicant not choose to remove the inset that, I guess, be resubmitted to the board for approval? The stepping stones, the stepping stone condition be removed. The height of the wood fence be as per our previous discussion and retaining four and five. Is there a second? Second. Okay. Any discussion? Yeah. To be clear and just to make sure we're all on the same page, if you all decide to go with the straight line, then the COA can be issued. If your client decides they really want the inset, then we'll have to review the issue again. And I'll come back with five people on the board and maybe we'll get it. Well, we've been waiting for a fifth for some time. And, of course, we've got a couple terms coming. Do we continue to serve until they're replaced or reappointed? Correct. Okay. All right. Obviously. One clarification. We would issue the COA for everything except the debated front fence, regardless of where you are with that. So before we do so, we'd be in communication with you to see if the other is resolved. But all the matters with that exception would be in a position to go ahead and be issued pending the board's action today. Okay. Without understanding, I'll second the motion or be in favor of it. All right. Any discussion? Okay. All in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye. Aye. Motion carried. Okay. Thanks. Appreciate it. All right. Let's go back down the agenda and see where we are. I think we bypassed item six on the agenda. It was 239 South Limestone Street. The applicant is still not here. The motion was to disapprove the paving of the utility strip. What's the pleasure of the board? Do you want to just go ahead and disapprove it? Let's go. Okay. But that's what the staff recommendation is, to disapprove the paving of the utility strip. I assume there's no one in the audience who would like to make comments about this. Hearing no comments, the chair will entertain a motion. Mr. Chair, before I move, I would like to note that the staff suggested that the fragmented curb be replaced, raising the top elevation of the curb, basically replacing it. I think that really will solve all the applicant's problems. That said, I move for disapproval of the COA for 239 South Limestone. Second. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye. Aye. And one abstention. Okay. Sorry. Three in favor, one abstention. Thank you. All right. I'm sorry. Could we ask for a clarification on the abstention? Thank you. All right. All right. The next item on the agenda is 620 West Short Street, and that was to construct an addition. And I believe the applicant is here. Yes, I think he probably should. Would you like a staff presentation on that? Martin, would you do a staff presentation since we're going to hear the case? The only thing we might ask, perhaps, is, is there anything in particular to focus  Are you in agreement with a number of things, or should we give you the whole shebang? Well, we're in agreement with everything except the Lynn Pettigoe at 647 South Upper. Right. I used to live at 627 West Short. Everything except the disapproval of the saloon wadding on the sidewalk. And I guess that we can do a staff report just about the sidewalk. If that's your purpose. Is that the main issue? That's the issue.  Just for clarification for while we're thinking about this during the presentation, your point of contention is just the width or the width and the material? He's willing to change the material, but he can't get his herbie-kirbie to the curb if it's not as wide as it is. Okay. Is what he keeps telling me. Thank you for indulging my question. All right. Let's see if we can just talk about the sidewalk, then, as an issue, because apparently everything else is okay. Martin, are you good to he's revising as we speak. Are you good to just do sidewalk? Thank you, sir. Of course, the sidewalk was stamped. So the width of the walk along the east side of the building for approximately half its length down to the fence gate area is 2'8", 2'8", except that the north two-foot length of walk, which abuts the public walk, flares to 3'10", in width. Once the walk extends beyond the fence gate line, the paving is extended over to the east wall of the main structure for a total width of 4'10". The existing skylight-formed rear concrete patio is extended to the new walkway with its north boundary being the wall of the main structure and the south boundary being the north wall of the outbuilding. We've listed the guidelines for your reference. I'm still looking here. Reference the paving. Since the paving was done without a COA, staff was unable to view, record the actual size and materials of the previous service walk extended from the public walk to the patio at the rear entry. However, the photographs in the presentation office files shows a concrete walk, possibly two-foot in width, extended along the east side of the structure and possibly a brick walk, maybe a bit wider at the rear patio. The proposal to replace the earlier concrete and or brick service walk in the front side and rear yard of this property with the new stamped colored concrete is found inappropriate and not within the guidelines. Guidelines 12.6, 14.2, 14.3, and 14.5 respectfully state open spaces that join the street should be only developed in scale, use, and character with the neighborhood and the landmark. New paved surfaces or alterations to existing paved surfaces should be compatible with surrounding historic properties and principal and accessory structures. Significant historic sidewalks, curbs, and street patterns in paved material should be retained, maintained, and the new paved surfaces should not be visually dominant, intrusive, or suggest a false sense of history. Typically, both the main entry walks and service walks of the block are either concrete or brick. The property's main entry walk and public walk, as well, are paved and brick. There is no stamped concrete elsewhere in the neighborhood. Also, the proposal to widen the walkway to 4 foot 10 inches from 2 foot 8 after extending beyond the fenced gate line is found inappropriate and not according with Guidelines 14.4 reference retaining historic green areas. I guess I'm down to the end there. Staff recommends disapproval of submitting of the widening of the sidewalk and the installation of the concrete stamp, concrete. Okay, thank you. All right. Ms. Pettigrew, would you like to make some comments? Well, I understand that my client did this without a COA in the beginning, and then I was brought in, which happens often, and went along with the addition to the house. And naturally, he would love to keep what he has done, but if we have to compromise, then he would rather have the width. And one of the reasons for that it was extended past the gate in the back to the house was there was a water issue with the basement. We're putting the site plan back up. Okay. Are you that masked architect? Pardon me? Are you the masked architect? I'm not an architect. That's true. Designer. Thank you. That's the reason that it was widened to the house behind the fence. And then his complaint about the narrowness or the lack of width was to get his trash to the curb. You can't get a Herbie up a 2'8 walkway. Is he going to tear up the whole sidewalk now? If he has to, yes. Because of the stamped. Correct. Can he get by with 3'0"? That's about the size of a Herbie. You mean just go in there and cut the stamped? No, no, no, no. No. In terms of replacing it, can he live with a 3'0 sidewalk as opposed to a 4'0"? Or was part of the problem trying to cure the drainage issue he's got? Without measuring the width of a. . . He made it, what, 4'0"? It's 4'10", is what they say on the report. I have not physically measured it. Okay. It's, what, 3'0"? Roughly? Am I right? The statistic I don't have off the top of my head is what the wheelbase width is. No, it's 3'10", on here, isn't it? But. . . I think it should. . . I would say. . . I think there's a typographical error in the. . . I think it's 3'10". I think it's 3'10". Okay, 3'10". I'm sure. But I would say around 3'0 is reasonable. Does everybody kind of thinking about a Herbie? Does that sound logical? I suspect, give or take, 4 inches. It's 36 inches wide. Well, you'd have to drive a straight line. Yeah, you would. You'd make it awfully. . . Okay. So are we actually looking at a sidewalk that's 3'10", or 4'10"? Maybe not. No, it's 3'10 past the gate. Okay. Somewhere along the line. Reading the background. . . I'm confused. The width of the walk along the east side of the building, approximately half its length, down to the fence-gated area is 2'8", except for the north 2' length of walk, which abuts the public walk, which then flares to 3'10". Once the walk extends beyond the fence gate line, the paving is extended over to the east wall of the main structure for a total width of 4'10". This is the flare. There is a barrier parked about 50 feet from us, if any. . . I can run out and measure it. The flare is right here to the 3'10". So what's the width of the. . . Sorry, but. . . That's fine. The width of the actual. . . 2'8". 2'8". This is 2'8", down to the gate, 3'10", flared right there at the sidewalk. And then this is the 4'. . . Microphone, please. 4'10". Well, that's where the confusion is. Who's confused? Not you. I think. . . I measured that. Maybe what he's trying to do here. . . I talked to him just by phone. He's not in town. . . . was to try to get it to the width that he could get a Herbie down it, and he would be in agreeance to change it to brick. All right. I mean, I guess to take into consideration the flare at the end and just make it all that width. That's very simple. And thank you for the material also. It's doable. Yeah, I think so. Do you want me to go ahead? Yeah, is there. . . well, are there questions or comments from the board members? Mr. Dickens has made some comments earlier, and do you have any other questions? We'll just see if there are any. Mr. Wingfield, do you have any questions? Oh, I'm sorry. I was sort of. . . Jim, were you. . . Yeah, I think I'm done. I think it's a perfectly reasonable suggestion on his part that the service walk be large enough to accommodate the Herbie, and since, you know, I think I have no problem with that, and I think maybe what we should do is approve the COA with a, you know, definable design of the sidewalk to be submitted to the staff so that it would accommodate the size of a Herbie and let it go at that, and the change of materials is greatly appreciated. And I know there's going to be some expense to him tearing up the sidewalk and redoing it, but. . . and that is greatly appreciated. But I think our solution is simply to go ahead and issue the COA subject to final details and design being approved by the staff on the size of the sidewalk. I'm smiling only because you do want me to measure a Herbie. We'll do that.   It will be useful information. We'll add it to our repertoire. So that when this question comes up again, we'll know. Okay. Mr. Wingfield, do you have any comments? No additional comments. Okay. I have one question. Is all the stamped concrete to be replaced, or just that service walk down to the gate? My answer to that question was all the stamped concrete. Now, if you would like a material change on the private side of the gate to regular concrete, non-stamped concrete, I think that's appropriate and brick towards the. . . Can he have the option? He may have. . . He gets rid of stamped? No. No stamping. No, I mean, it can either be concrete or brick.  Okay. Just not stamped and stained. Just not stamped. That would be my suggestion. You're talking about the portion that becomes the patio portion and leading the mass leading up to what then narrows down to head toward the street? What portion of this drawing are you anticipating there being a material change? I was giving. . . I was saying that should the client choose to. . . Yes. Thank you, Randy. . . . pass the gate on the. . . where's north? Right. From there, as indicated on the overhead, that that area be allowed to be regular concrete and then should. . . and then he's already sort of ironed out that the sidewalk that was expanded on the street side of the gate would be brick. And that could remain brick. And I was saying that they. . . I was indicating that it would be okay to have the brick terminated at the fence and then inside the fence be concrete. Should the applicant choose to. I understand. Yeah, I understand. And, again, that's just me. I concur. Mr. Haley. Okay. I concur. Okay. All right. Yeah, I do, too. Okay. All right. Any examples seem. . . As long as we can widen from the fence to the street to accommodate the herby, and then we have the option for material change behind the fence either for concrete or brick pavers. Yeah. I think this is an observation about the width of the sidewalk relative to the herby. Parking spaces for cars are usually bigger than a car because a lot of people like me can't aim very well. And so I think, you know, whatever the width of the herby is, there needs to be some kind of allowance so that. . . It can't be just literal, the width of the herby. No, no. Staff would not suggest that to be the solution. So it needs to be. . . But they're going to have to have herby driving school. And. . . Yeah. So between. . . If it's 310, I don't know how I arrived at that number at the street. Yeah. But if we can. . . I think you're not at the street. You're at the sidewalk. And I think they just want to park two curbies there, two curbies right there at this point right here, two curbies. And I think the fact that they had already built the walk at 210 is enough proof that you can do a herby at 210. Three foot is a world of. . . That's a huge, big herby. Well, I think, once again, if we make the motion subject to the walk being sufficiently wide to allow for easy maneuvering of the herby or to accommodate the herby, however you want to put it, I think that should take care of it. I'm in agreement with that. And we're in agreement to do a material change. Okay. Very good. Thank you. Anybody. . . Any comments from the audience? Okay. Hearing no comments, the Chair would be very happy if someone would like to make a motion. Mr. Chair, I move for approval of the COA for 620 West Short Street, subject to the four conditions listed in the staff report, adding a condition that the widening of the sidewalk from the fence to the curb, or to the public sidewalk, be sufficiently wide to accommodate a garbage collection receptacle called a herby curby, and that that portion of that sidewalk be in brick. On the patio side of the fence, that the applicant be given the option of either replacing the stamped concrete with brick or traditional concrete that's not colored. And reiterating condition four, that all final drawings, details, and clarifications be submitted to staff for review and approval prior to the issue with the COA. I find that the widening of the sidewalk is, in fact, in accordance with Guideline 14-4, which references retaining historic green areas. I think that the minimal widening that will occur for the sidewalk will not create a significant reduction in the green space for the site and the historic district. Is there a second? Second. Any discussion? Yes, I believe Ms. O'Connor. One question about your motion for clarification for staff. Does the property owner, do you wish them to have the alternative to have that sidewalk from the gate to the public sidewalk be concrete or brick? You said brick. Do you wish them to have the alternative of concrete? Well, I believe the entrance to the house is in brick already, and I think it appropriate to keep that. I just wanted to be clear. Thank you. Okay. All right. Everybody understand the motion? Okay. If there's no further discussion, all in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye. Motion carries. Okay, fine. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. Let's see. Just continuing down the agenda. Seven parks. We are coming back to Item 9 on the agenda, 237 Barbary Lane. The motion is to paint the masonry structure. Is the applicant here for that? Okay. The motion was to, or the recommendation of staff was to disapprove painting the masonry structure. We typically do not approve painting structures which have not been painted previously. And the staff felt that the color of the brick was, in its natural state, was a significant part of the architecture of the house. So do we need to have any comments from the staff on that? Not unless you have questions. Thank you. Okay. So does anyone have any questions about the staff recommendation? I assume the disapproval has been communicated to the applicant. Martin, is that correct? Yes. That was done for the previous meeting. Okay. All that information was mailed out. So he knows it's going to be disapproved, and he decided not to show up. Okay. Well, he knows that's what the staff recommendation reflects. Okay. In that case, Mr. Chair, I'd like to move that with respect to 237 Barbary Lane that we What? Suggest for public comment. Is there public, anybody in the audience who'd like to make comments about this? There are no comments, so we'll entertain a motion. Mr. Chair, with respect to 237 Barbary Lane, I recommend that we accept the staff's disapproval of the application for COA. Second. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye. Aye. Motion carried. Okay. The next item on our agenda that we are coming back to is the item number 11 on your agenda in Belcourt, Historic District, 609 Boonesboro Avenue. The application is to construct a deck. Is the applicant here for that? Okay. All right. There were a couple of conditions that the staff recommended, and I guess we could either approve the application conditions that are stipulated in the report, or we could table the application to give the applicant a chance to come back and talk to us about that. I don't know what would be the most appropriate thing to do. It's certainly the board's decision. Just generally, not specific to this case, but something of this nature reflected in this, I would say that should the applicant, should you approve it with the conditions included and the applicant strongly disagrees or wants to disagree at all with either or both of those conditions, then it could come back to the board. Let me think about this. I can't rehear the same case without new evidence. That is at the downside. There are rather typical conditions, but I would say, keeping in mind that you couldn't hear the identical request again without there being additional evidence, if you feel that the representative should be present for your considerations, that that's your choice. How do you all? Well, I agree with Ms. Carr. I think the conditions are fairly typical, and not that I would encourage anyone to use the appeals process, but that would be certainly the applicant's right to appeal the approval should they so desire. Well, I'm not particularly inclined to approve it without those two conditions. That's where I'm coming from. So I think if they were here today, even if they didn't agree, and if they want to come back proposing a different material, that would be new evidence. Isn't that correct? Correct. And then you all could discuss the same. That's correct. Ms. Carr, just a point of clarification. What's the date of our next hearing? June 25th is our next hearing date. And so in order to continue this forward, the applicant would have to agree to a continuance. So that's a very good point. You would be business-wise certainly appropriate to go ahead and take action today, since they are not here to state that they agree to an extension of time. I am assuming they were communicated and told what these conditions were, correct? Yes, I believe the staff report was sent to them. Martin, is that correct? They did receive the staff report. You know, sometimes absence implies consent. You know, if they are not here to protest the staff recommendations and the final date is the 16th, we can assume, without further notice, that they have consented to the staff recommendations. Well, and it's always, because we're trying to facilitate people being able to go ahead and get their permits and carry out their work, sometimes I think that it is of more assistance to perhaps consider going ahead and acting in a situation like this, because the conditions are pretty minor. If the conditions were substantive, I would not advise that. But because they're pretty normal conditions for a situation such as this, I think the staff would suggest it would not be inappropriate if that is what the board concurs with. And as you say, if they wanted to disagree with those conditions and come back with alternate proposal, then that door would be open to them because it would be, as Mr. Carpenter said, new evidence. I mean, I'll just say once again, I think without those conditions, I don't think it's an approvable project. That's my feeling. I don't have the rest of the people who agree with it. So I concur. I think they would have to do something to address the issues that prompted the staff to attach those two conditions on there.  And the staff would concur certainly with that. Is there any more discussion? I guess the Chair would entertain a motion if there's no more discussion. Mr. Chair, I move for approval and issuance of the COA for 609 Boonesborough Avenue, subject to the three conditions listed in the staff report. Second. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye. Aye. Okay. The next item on the agenda that we did not take action on, we're coming back to, is item number 12 on our agenda, Woodward Heights, 347 Marino Street. The application was to replace a step and change the front porch material. Is that applicant present? No. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I think the staff has raised a number of issues, I think, and recommended tabling the project until further condition, until further consideration of the points that were raised by the staff be taken. The applicant is not here this afternoon. I guess we could recommend tabling this, I guess, until our next meeting, if that would be appropriate. Mr. Carper, if I may, I believe that my note-taking is adequate, that the next hearing is the 25th of June, and I believe that our action deadline is June 18th. Okay. Has there been any communication at all from the applicant regarding the code issues? There has been communication between the preservation inspector and a representative of the applicant. That was a phone conversation that I heard pieces of just in passing, and she mentioned that they were discussing this. However, I don't know necessarily that he said, oh, had the applicant really taken note of the fact that this doesn't work for the code and that he would talk to them about that. So it's not a direct from the property owner, but it is someone who has been involved in doing projects for this applicant in the past. And quite frankly, there's no point in, if you were to approve this as it stood, it cannot be built. Correct. So there's not a lot to be gained from anything. We cannot help the situation until the applicant comes forward with an alternative proposal. I guess we could disapprove it. That's correct. And then they could come back with new evidence or a new proposal. I wonder if that, since we're facing the deadline, I wonder if that isn't what we should do. I don't know. I don't know what the alternative is, actually. I don't think you have much alternative, given the time frame. Yeah. If the applicant's not here to agree to an extension, so we can't arbitrarily Or to suggest a withdrawal in light of the fact that it doesn't meet code, but we can't do either one on their behalf. And I think we need to point out this is the second time this has been noticed for a meeting. Now, the first time, I think we had to cancel because we didn't have a forum, correct? That's correct. I assume this has been communicated to the applicant again. I have not personally been privy to such a conversation. And with our inspector away from us for several days, I'm not able to speak to that. I went over and looked at the property. And, yes, the way those stairs are configured is they can't be approved. I mean, they're not safe. Well, the code issue alone necessitates a change. Yes. So I guess the option before us, then, is just to go ahead and disapprove the application? And let it come back with a new application, presumably? If that's the board's determination. But I don't know a staff of an alternative to suggest to you. Okay. Once again, I don't think this is an approvable project from a code perspective. And I think there are also some architectural design issues that are here, too. Make it hard for us to agree that it could be approved. So, is there any comments from the audience? Okay. All right. The chair will entertain a motion. Mr. Chair, I move for disapproval of the COA for 347 Marino Street. Second. All right. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye. Aye. Okay. All right. We've gone through the. Is there one more? Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Let's see. There's one other item that we passed over. That's in Bell Court. That is item number 14 on the agenda. 116 Forest Avenue, construction garage and paved areas. And I believe the applicant is present. Yeah. So, would you like to come forward? My name is Don Watson, and I own the property at 116 Forest Avenue. Have you had a chance to read the staff report? Yes. Are you in agreement with it? Sure. Okay. I don't have any problems at all. Okay. Excellent. Mr. Barton, you should have sung out. We would have taken your case out of order. You should have sung out earlier. We would have taken your case out of order. I'm sorry to have held you all. Okay. Yeah. We've had an unusual round of good luck or whatever this afternoon. It's gone faster than we thought it was going to. That's right. I'm sorry I wasn't here. If you're in agreement with the staff recommendations, then we can go ahead and approve it. Fine with me. It's all right with you. And I don't see anyone else sitting in the audience, so I don't think anyone is here this afternoon to make comments about your case. So, the Chair will entertain a motion. Mr. Chairman, I move for approval of the COA for 116 Forest Avenue, subject to the seven conditions listed in the staff report. Second. Okay. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye. Aye. Okay. All right. I would like to note that item number 15 on our agenda, in Ailsford Historic District, 127 Woodland Avenue, for place siting, that has been withdrawn. And so, is there any other business? Quickly, just one thing to note as a reminder. The next meeting, June 25th, will not be here in the chamber. It will be in the conference room on the third floor of the Phoenix Building at 5 p.m. The chamber was unavailable to us that day. Right. Could I ask where we stand on the appointment of another member of the board? We have no word about that. I know that there are a number of appointments coming forward on a variety of boards, but we have not any specific information about this one. The chair would want to appoint a committee to consider who should be the chair and vice chair for next year. I wonder, maybe I should wait until the next meeting just to see if there is someone else appointed prior to doing that. That probably would be a wise thought. Okay. Okay. Since it's only two weeks per your office or elections. Right. All right. Very good. Okay. Any other business? Okay. If there is no other business, the chair will entertain a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. Second. Second. All in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Motion carried. Thank you. Thank you.