One of the phone numbers, his name is not showing up. I've got two that are just listed with phone numbers. Well, you got a 50-50 chance getting the right one. I am here. Aha, there you are. It's been a while since I've seen you. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing fine. How are you? Doing well. It's good to see you again, Raymond. The staff has reviewed your application, and I believe they have recommended approval subject to what I call the standard two conditions. Are you in agreement with those? Yes, sir. Okay. Any questions or comments from the board members? Any questions or comments from the audience that I have? I'll give it a count of five to seven seconds. Apparently, there are no virtual hands been raised. I believe then the chair is ready for a motion. A hand came up late. Tracy Whitley. All right, Ms. Whitley. Can you bring her in? Ms. Whitley. Hi. Good afternoon. How are you? I will not hold you up long. I just am a directly abutting neighbor of the hills, And I wanted to say thank you for approving this project of theirs. I know it had to comply. But I just wanted to endorse that they're excellent neighbors and they do a wonderful job with their projects and preserving the history here. And for what it was worth, I just wanted to provide my endorsement and say thank you. And I think they will do an excellent job with the project. And we appreciate your comments. You may or may not know this, but we have the pleasure of having Ms. Hill as being a member of our board. Yes, indeed. And so anyway, I know sometimes you don't have neighbors chiming in saying the nicest things, but I wanted to say some nice things today and also to say thank you to all of you for all the work that you do. I haven't worked with you directly before, but thank you very much for all the work that you do. okay miss whitley thank you for doing that we don't hear as many supportive comments as we should from time to time in fact i was a little nervous when i first sorry about that okay all right thank you all thank you miss whitley i don't believe i've heard a motion yet there i would like to uh as for the case number 06900416-R at 416 Fayette Park. Enter a motion to approve the certificate of appropriateness with the two standard conditions. Thank you. Okay. You'll get better at this. It'll come second nature to you in a while. Do I have a second? You have to unmute, Mr. Gilder. You're still muted. Second. Very good. Thank you. Any further discussion on the motion? if not then the chair will call the question all those in favor say aye aye and i see a raised hand indicating uh approval uh the motion as conditioned the the motion passes and the certificate appropriateness as conditioned is approved thank you so much have a nice day okay mr hill thank you uh turning now to application number three 159 forest avenue in bell court historic district uh the scope of work is constructed deck the applicant is michael and ann griffin they're the owners and the applicant is chris uh burkhart is mr burkhart or uh the griffins are here how are you all right uh it's my understanding the staff has reviewed your application they have recommended approval subject to what we've been referring to as the standard to conditions. I think you've already heard me read those into the record. Are you in agreement with those conditions? Yes. Thank you very much. Is there any questions or comments from the board members? I apologize for my grammar. Are there any comments? Are there any comments? Just as a resident of Belcourt, I will abstain from the vote. All right, very well. Any comments from their virtual audience? I'll give that a count of 10. There are none. Thank you very much. You count just a hair faster than I do. All right, I believe then we're ready for a motion. Mr. Chair regarding case number 0728-0159-I at 159 Forest Avenue I move to approve this application for a certificate of appropriateness with our two standard conditions. All right do I have a second second thank you miss hill any further discussion on the motion if not then the chair will call the question all those in favor say aye aye aye aye the motion passes as and the certificate of appropriateness is approved as conditioned uh mr and mr drissman thank you so much and good luck with your project thank you all right thank you uh turning to uh application number four at 478 West 2nd Street. Scope of work is change of openings. The owner is Joe and Jessica Clark. The applicant is Angela Forsey. Is anyone here? I'm here. Angela Forsey. I hear you, but I don't see you. I know it, and I can't see all of you all, but it doesn't seem you can. Let's try that. There you go. There we go. All right. Thank you. How are you guys? We're doing well. Thank you. Ms. Forsey, I believe your application has been reviewed and approved for a recommended approval by the staff subject to, I believe, just the standard conditions. But let me double check. Yeah. Just the two standard conditions. Have you heard those before? Well, why don't you repeat them? I'm getting 50 now. So everything. these are the conditions that the staff routinely attaches because years and years ago they got burnt by failure just making sure that once reviewed by the other divisions any changes come back to the staff or board for review and approval prior to the work start of work and if any and secondly if any changes are made that alter the information submitted you'll resubmit the changes to the staff or review and approval prior to start of work Are you in agreement with those conditions? I am, sir, yes. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Any questions or comments from the board members? Any questions or comments from my virtual audience? I'll give it a count of 10. Hearing none, I believe we're ready for a motion. Chair, in the case number 16840478 at 478 West 2nd Street, I move to approve this application for a certificate of appropriateness with the standard two conditions. Okay, do I have a second? Second. Second. Ms. Erwin, thank you. Any further discussion on the motion? If not, the chair will call the motion. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye. All those opposed, say nay. The motion passes and the certificate of appropriateness is approved as conditioned. Ms. Forsey, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys. Good luck with your project. I will need it. Thank you. Well, in these virtual times, we need all the help we can get. I'm in the middle of several construction projects myself, and it's taken about five times longer than I thought it would. Yeah, man. It's like it's looking for a needle in a haystack. And if I end up in trouble, I'm going to look for a virtual meeting with you. So you hang tight. All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks, guys. Okay. Turning to our next application at 134 Barbary Lane. Scope of work is demolish garage And construct carport and change openings Scott McIntosh is the owner Jeremy DeWitt is the applicant I see a little Jeremy at the bottom Is that Mr. DeWitt? Yes, that's me Do you wish to be seen, Mr. DeWitt? Or would you prefer to be just audio? Either way, you can show me Yeah I think you'll have to turn on your camera it should be probably in the upper right hand corner there you are Mr. DeWitt all right so far we've had you know pretty routine yes the staff has recommended approval of your application subject to what I've been calling the standard two conditions have you heard me read those into the record yet? Yes, sir. Are you in agreement with them? Yes, sir. All right. Do I have any questions or comments from the board members? All right. Do I have any comments or questions from the virtual audience? I'll give it a count of 10. Hearing none, I believe we're ready for a motion. Mr. Chair. Okay, Mr. Goff, go ahead. One of you do it. Forgive me. Okay. I stepped on you, so. I did a lot of reading there in the background. Case number 01180134-D at the address of 134 Barberry Lane. I move to approve the application for a certificate of appropriateness with our two standard conditions. All right. Do I have a second? Second. Do I have any discussion on the motion? If not, then the chair will call the question. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed nay. Motion passes and the certificate of appropriateness as conditioned is approved. Thank you so much. Good seeing you, Jeremy. Thank you. All right, Mr. Good. Okay, turning to attachment number six, 324 South Mill Street in the South Hill Historic District. Scope of work is demolished garage, construct garage. The owner is Terry Lenny. The applicant is John DeHart. Either one of those people here. Mr. Dohar. It's good to see you, John. How are you? I'm good, Jim. How are you? Doing well. I believe the staff has reviewed your application and has approved it subject to the standard two conditions I've been reading into the record. Have you heard me say those conditions? No, I'd like to hear you say them again. Okay. We're in agreement with those conditions. Thank you, Mr. Dohar. I appreciate your cooperativeness. All right, then. Are there any questions or comments from the board members regarding this application? All right. Any comments or questions from the virtual audience? all right hearing none i'll simply make a comment i really like the design of this garage john it looks very interesting and i think we'll get a nice addition to the south mill street area i appreciate that jim it's been a fun project we agree with that yeah uh for the record terry lenny has appeared and thank you so much for appearing with us any questions or comments from the board members if not then I think we're ready for a motion Mr. Chair for the case number 13150324-M at 324 South Mill Street I move that we approve the certificate of appropriateness with the two stated conditions. Conditions. I didn't skip that word. Sorry. Okay, that's fine. Any discussion on the motion? I'm sorry, do I have a second, first of all? Do I have a second? Second. All right. Any discussion on the motion? If not, then the chair will call the question All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed nay. All right. The motion passes. Your certificate of appropriateness as conditioned is approved. Enjoy your project. Thank you guys very much. Don't tear out what's left of your hair getting it done. And I can talk. All right. Thank you all very much. All right, turning now to our next application. It's on 282 Clay Avenue. Construct garage, construct roof over deck. The owner is Howard Myers, and the applicant is John Book. Are either one of these people present? Yes, sir. How are you today? Hey, we're doing well, sir. Good. the staff I believe has recommended approval of your application subject to what I've been referring to as the standard two conditions have you heard me read those into the record yes sir are you in agreement with them we are perfectly fine with that all right thank you any questions or comments about the application no no sir that was actually addressed to the board members, but that's okay. Actually, do you have any questions, Mr. Book, about the application? No. Any questions or comments from the board members? Any questions or comments from a virtual audience? I'll give it a count of 10. Hearing none, I believe the chair is ready for a motion. Chair, per case number 04150282-F at 282 Clay Avenue, I move to approve this application for certificate of appropriateness with the standard two conditions. Thank you very much. Do I have a second? I'll second. All right. Any discussion on the motion itself? Hearing none, the chair will call the question. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. The motion passes and the certificate of appropriateness for the application is approved as condition. Mr. Book, thank you so much. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Turning now to attachment number eight at 327 South Upper Street. Mike Elder is the applicant. The scope of work is renovate the CMU edition and construct rear edition in the garage. Is Mr. Elder. Mr. Elder, how are you today? You need to turn on your mic. There you go. You had it on. Got it now. Very good, Mr. Elder. Thank you. Staff reviewed your application. They had some suggestions and some suggested changes. I'll read them briefly into the record. First of all, change the brick color to a color compatible with the historic residential and newer structures in the historic district. Secondly, increase the size of the rear columns to 10 inch. Number three, change the top rail of the railing to wood or metal. Number four, align the first floor door and second floor window in the north end of the rear elevation. And number five and six are what I've been referring to as the standard conditions. Correct. Are you in agreement with those changes or do you want to be heard on it yet? Yeah, I'm in agreement with it. the only question I'll have is will that be at a staff level that we talk about this brick? Because we've been dealing with finding a solution. But right now, the building is terrible. It's a CMU block building. And we chose to keep it just because structurally it was great. And when they added that CMU block, they completely demoed and destroyed the original facade of the building. So it really didn't do us any good to take it off because there was nothing there historic behind it. I'm a little confused on what we need to put on there because I've submitted probably I think around five different choices and I thought this was the one that well that at least Barry and I discussed together. I don't think i don't know if betty ever saw it but it was uh probably the closest thing we could find you know we're in a weird situation there we're not they don't want it to look historic but it also doesn't need to look modern on the front either well if i'm reading the if i'm reading the findings correctly i think they were just objecting to the color of white if you chose some other color you'll be fine okay yeah i've submitted several of them and they selected that white one for me kind of left it up to them. Okay. Maybe they're just trying to make it clear to you that you can have any color but white. Okay. Which is fine. I'm really open. That's why I send so many samples. At this point, I don't care. Whatever you all think is. I see Barry beginning, I think, coming to the microphone. It may offer some clarification. As long as I know what direction to go in and if I can deal with that at the staff level, that's fine. Mr. Dennis, if you could remove your mask temporarily so we can hear you clearly. Thank you. And you'll have to unmute yourself. There you go. Can you offer some clarification as to what was going on? When we received it, maybe I was confused, but I thought you were leading us towards the white. There was one other that's included in the board's package that is, well, a couple of others, but the issue with those was the mortar joints, they're wide. You know, we need to get something more in keeping with the brick in the historic area. and we think that because there are no white brick anywhere in the that we're aware of in the H1s that that white color would not be appropriate and it would be better to see some actual samples of brick. Barry, I know we've met a bunch and you've been super helpful throughout this whole process. Should we just paint the brick then? But then I thought that was going to be too much like duplicating what's there on where you come. There's two units we're calling left and right. It would be too similar to you know the one on the right if we went with a similar size brick and we painted it. Well I think an unpainted brick of the thin brick type that you're proposing will be acceptable. We just need to come up with a sample that we can see to compare to the other. That's totally fine. Now we wouldn't recommend. I think what we need to do just to make it abundantly clear in condition number one i think maybe if we modify that condition to say change the color to a color compatible and submit samples to the staff for its review and approval yes is acceptable to you mr elder oh yeah that's fine and that was really my question can we do this at a staff level or did i need to come back to this i don't see why you can't do it at a staff level as always if you butt heads, that's what we're here for. Okay. No, I think it's fine. We have kind of infinite choices then, so we can just agree on one. I was just confused on that because I thought our final finding work was the white one. To be clear, has this structure been painted before? Are we dealing with original brick? No, we're dealing with CMU put on and then i'm sorry i don't know what i was thinking we're talking about new brick right so i think this is something the staff can work out with you mr elder and we'll just we'll just make that clear in our conditions anything else you need to be heard on no sorry i think everything else is good yeah okay all right then uh any questions or comments from the staff from the board members. Okay. Do I have any questions or comments from my virtual audience? I'll give it a count of 10. Hearing none then, I think we're ready for a motion. Don't be shy. Mr. Governor. Mr. Chair, regarding case number 19450327-H at 327 South Upper Street, I move to approve the application for a certificate of appropriateness with the following conditions. Number one, to change the brick color to a color compatible with the historic residential and newer structures in the historic district and submit samples to staff Number two, increase the size of the rear columns to 10 inches. Number three, change the top rail of the railing to wood or metal. Number four, align the first floor door and second floor window in the north end of the rear elevation. And numbers five and six are standard conditions. All right, do I have a second? Second. And yes, Ms. Kerr. Just one slight clarification. Could you add to your conditions that those other conditions will be met prior to issuance of the COA? We're missing that piece. I thought we said that. Okay, yeah, that's considered added. Thank you. Well, Mr. Giffman, I said, right past your agreement added to your motion? I'll agree to add those to the motion. Okay. All right. Okay. Then any further discussion on the motion? If not, then the chair will call the question. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Those nay, the motion passes and the certificate of appropriateness as conditioned is approved. Mr. Elder, thank you for your time and thank you for your working with staff on this. Yes. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. All right. Turning to our next attachment, this is at 210 Bell Court. The scope of work is paint structure and the applicants are Ryan and Rachel Hilliard. Are either of them present? Ryan, how are you today? Good, sir. How are you doing today? I'm doing well. Mr. Hilliard, regretfully, I think the board has, the staff has reviewed your application and the guidelines that are affected by that application and they have recommended a denial of your application i'm assuming you would like to be heard on that yes or do you understand or do you understand the staff conditions and appreciate why they can't approve or cannot recommend approval of your application we do we we very much appreciate it we appreciate the opportunity to be here with you i think our clarification that we're interested in is our brick seems to be uniquely cracking in a way that maybe isn't seen commonly in the actual brick itself and not so much in the mortar joints or on the mortar and so we're looking for a solution to that I know that paint is not always the the best recommendation but we're looking for a solution on how we can proceed with our brick we don't know what what that looks like so we're just we're curious we do want to maintain the character of Belcourt and those standards so we're all ears on how to proceed. Okay I think in fairness to you then let's go ahead and have a staff submit their findings to us and let's have a conversation about what if any solutions are available other than painting. Okay all right Ms. Armstrong. Hold on one second please. And of course you froze. No you didn't. Never mind. Okay. Of course this is the property at 210 Bell Place. Can everybody see the screen? It's not coming up. Hold on one second. We see your menu. We see your file but not the, and it's highlighted but it's not open. Hold on. Let me try this again. There we go. Okay. Great. Except for your case one. Hold on one second. Well, this is easier. We did this practice this earlier. I promise we did. Is this it? Yes. Yes. Okay. Great. All right. So this is the property at 210 Bell Place. As you can see, this is a buff colored building. And of course, you can see the nice decorative porch as well, which is unique. unique as well as this brick to Belcourt, which you see several houses in Belcourt that have a wide array of red and this orange sort of buff colored brick. And this is sort of a detailed image of the brick. And these are the fissures, small cracks that Mr. Hilliard is referring to. here's more of a detail of this. This is actually, the image you're looking at is the actual brick on the front porch. It's sort of, instead of a railing system, they actually have this brick that comes across the actual porch itself. You can see this is also a detail of that. This is the southeast side of the property. and again this is a view of that the masonry itself and then of course here's the this is the rear of the structure and and um prior to them purchasing the property this this actually this inset had actually already been painted so this was sort of the previous situation that you see that i'm pointing out and you can see the rear wall here and again the buff colored brick in the fissures are talking about and then here is a rear wall another section where there's some gutters sort of causing leaves in the gutter causing a little bit more deteriorate like a discoloration here another image of the mirror and then going around to the other side give you sort of an overview of the structure this is the north east side and I'll just leave it on this image right now. Of course, their request is to paint the structure, and Mr. and Mrs. Hilliard and I have had various discussions about this since their purchase of the structure, and we've always sort of not been supportive of them painting the structure, but wanting that they are concerned about fissures. and guidelines are included for your reference. Findings, the staff finds a proposal to paint the structures not with no guidelines. The design principle states color, texture, mortar joints, patterns of a masonry to find the overall character of the masonry buildings. Additionally, guidelines 1-3-F, 1-3-G, state respectively masonry should not be treated with water repellent coatings unless repairs or remedies such as providing adequate drain off of or away from the building if they'll to stop water penetration problems and may sure it should not be covered with any silicon-based water sealant or liquid siding paint sealants and liquids can trap the exterior of the building and damage the inside as well as the integrity of the brick and then 13h states make sure that it's never been unpainted should not be painted. This is a historic brick building that is never intended to be painted in its presence on the street and when the Belcourt historic district is indicative of the eclectic nature of the neighborhood and the architecture in the block. In addition, the Secretary of Interior standards for historic preservation also suggest unpainted mainstream should remain unpainted as well as detrimental to the physical and visual integrity of the brick and potentially of the historic structure. And of course, there's no need, no part of the application is also to paint the trim of the brick mold. And that, of course, requires no certificate of appropriateness for the painting of the trim. And then I would add one additional thing. There was an article that recently came back just actually this past month talking about that it was not advisable to paint structures that had fissures or anything like that because it also could lead to causing more problems. And of course, recommendation staff recommends the dial of the application to paint and structure. And of course, Mr. and Mrs. Hilliard are here and I will stop the sharing so you all can discuss. okay mr hilliard i mean first of all are there any questions of ms armstrong any questions from the board members i have one quick question that i want to hear from you mr can you tell from the fissures whether they're it's affecting the overall structural integrity of the wall, of the brick? It doesn't appear to be. Ms. Hilliard and I were discussing this project, I guess, last month, and she did point out where there had been some maybe cracks in the building itself. However, going to the opposite side of that where I showed the gutters were leaking off, to me, potentially, water was sort of getting in that back wall, and if you'd like to, I could show those pictures. And that actually is where the issues in that particular room, which was that back wall where I indicated the masonry was a little, it had some discoloration. And that was just from gutters leaking out. But it seems to be that all the fissures are actually universal all over the building. And it doesn't seem to be causing any kind of structural issues. Okay. Is it just part of the aging process of the brick? A fissure, of course, is those little cracks, as you saw, and there are underlying cracks all over the building. And it does not seem to be affecting the building itself, and it's not, they're universally all over the structure. Okay. I was just going to add one thing, if I could, about what a fissure is in this brick. It is a result of a really hot fired brick. And it happens at the time it's been fired and coming out of the firing process. And so this isn't a change that has occurred more recently due to deterioration or anything like that. This has been, this outcome has been part of this brick for decades and decades and decades when it was made. So this is seen in brick that is a real hot fired brick. and properties all, you know, where that is the case. And it is not, that fissure doesn't go into the brick itself. I mean, to the point, it's endangering the health of the stability of the brick. And also the brick is quite sound and the building is quite sound with that brick having been that way a very long time. So it is not something that needs correcting physically. because there's nothing that it is failing to perform as a material on the exterior of that house. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Mr. Hilliard, would you do any comments or questions? Well, no, that's a great help. Honestly, the educational aspect of that was very good to hear. You know, for us, it's probably more of a, we consulted with a couple masons and it did seem to be a unique problem maybe but it might not be a problem according to what mrs kerr said so that's good if it doesn't hurt the structural integrity of the structure and if that was where you know if you've got a brick and it's not going through the brick that fissure that we're discussing then that greatly helps with some assurance of the property itself we just wanted to make sure that if it did come to mostly if you really honestly think about it's probably a cosmetic look that the fissure might not be as attractive as maybe we would like if I'm being honest and so that was we we figured we would get to this point and see if there is an opportunity and if I'm being honest and if there was a I would I'm just grateful to have the discussion with you. We, of course, want to maintain the historical look and feel of Belcourt, and we would, we wanted to be advised by you all on how to make that happen, and so we appreciate the opportunity and, of course, respect the recommendations of the board. Thank you. Any questions or comments from the other board members? Ms. Hill, go ahead. A suggestion. I would, several concerns in looking at the building, which is really handsome, just striking. I really love that brick, and it is very unique. I would have expected if those fissures had broken through that you'd see shifting happen with pieces of the brick and certainly that's not showing up in the photographs. One thing you might consider is that several of the brickyards in town carry a similar kind of a brick and they have their representatives who come through regionally at times and I found on projects that they can be extraordinarily technically helpful in helping you understand and just looking at your project to kind of build some confidence about it. But I certainly completely concur with what Ms. Kerr is saying about the nature of the brick. But I think the biggest thing is those horizontal eave lines is making sure that you're addressing water issues. I think the infiltration of the water is your I think that's your biggest problem, your biggest challenge. I will add that there are a number of those so-called buff colored houses that bricking ages in a way is almost like a natural patina to it. I think it comes out actually out of the fire as Ms. Kerr pointed out it comes out of the firing process, looking something like that. And as it ages and those fissures can darken and that's what you're probably seeing, but that actually adds to the, to me, to the character of the house. So rather than being an aesthetic negative, it actually should be viewed by you as an aesthetic positive. Well, I appreciate it. No, that's hard. That's what I want to hear. Embrace the oldness of your house. Well, I greatly appreciate that. I work in real estate, so it's also very much a learning process for me, this whole thing. I enjoy hearing from all of you. First of all, I want to thank you for not hauling off and painting the house as we've been dealing with other instances. So you have saved yourself a whole bunch of money. And I will say I owned a house where I, it was an ugly red mortar. And I didn't realize at that time that we weren't in the district. I went ahead and painted it. It did not turn out well. So it's sometimes best just to leave unpainted brick alone. Well, that's, it's been a great, it's been honestly great to hear you all say this. and it's probably my wife is listening to I think but we appreciate you and we appreciate the opportunity to be with you. Okay Ryan thank you so much. Thank you. All right I believe we're ready for a motion then. I just wanted to say because I am a resident of Belfort I abstain. Okay Ms. Irwin thank you so much. I didn't ask for any questions or comments from the virtual audience. Hearing none, I believe we're now ready for a motion. Chair, per case number 32930210-J at 210 Bell Court, I move to disapprove this application for a certificate of appropriateness as noted by the staff. All right. Do I have a second? I get it. All right. Any further discussion on the motion? All those in favor of the staff's recommendation of disapproval, please say aye. Opposed? Nay. The motion passes and the application is denied. Mr. Hilliard, thank you for working with us through the process. It's much appreciated. You're very welcome. Thank you for your time today. Thank you, sir. All right, turning next to our next application at 336 Hampton Court. Carl Clunn is the owner, and I believe they've been here for a while. And the scope of work is demolish, mirage, and construct the auxiliary structure. Is the applicant here? Yes, I am the applicant, and I think that Carl and Joelle. I'm sorry. Mr. Book, I apologize. Your name was right there, and I went right over it. Quite all right. I see Mr. Coon as well. Okay. With respect to this application, and this is going to be, you know, obviously we didn't have findings on this one. The staff has recommended disapproval of the application. What have I done here? Yes, they have recommended disapproval of the application to demo the historic garage and they have also recommended denial of the proposed new accessory building as well. I'm assuming you want to be heard on that. Yes, sir. Okay, so let's have the staff make its presentation, please. so so so 336 barry i hate to tell you this it's not coming up yet it's not it seems like it takes two tries to do it let's or you have to start at the very beginning and Can you hop her down there? Stop share. technology let me try it again there you go you're seeing it now i'm seeing something okay i'm not sure which one it is front elevation is that the house that we're involved with yes 336 Hampton Court. Barry, before you start, I have one quick question just to get clarification. Are you saying even if we approve the demolition of the garage, the staff still has problems with the design of the proposed auxiliary structure? Is that correct? Yes, sir. It's almost an exact duplication of the existing garage. Okay. Then change to the openings. Okay. Go ahead then. Okay, the applicant is requesting a certificate of appropriate to conduct the following work. Demolish the garage and construct an accessory structure. So this is the front elevation of the house. This is a view of the garage. this is the wall that faces the rear of the primary structure. You can see in this, these are wire cut brick up to a certain level. And then above that is a few courses of smooth brick. than with a clay parapet cap. There's parapets on three sides of the building. So this is that door. These doors and windows seem to have been changed at some time, although that doesn't really affect the form and massing of the structure. So this is the door that you should have seen. the header. This is the window that's to the left of that door as you're facing. And then that has a brick arch with a smooth brick and a wire cut brick within it. And you can see there's some smooth brick in other locations. This is a concrete windowsill and it's a replacement window. As you go to the sides of the building you can see how the wire brick turns the corner and it's too thin to this smooth brick that forms the north and south elevations and here's a more of a detail showing that with the smooth brick again above and the wire cut up to about the roof line. This is the south elevation. This would be the east elevation with two garage doors. This is a detail showing how it's a double-wife brick structure and you can see how it's laid up around what would the header beam over the door openings. Now this is a detail of the main house. This is more of an overall and then I'll go back to that detail. You can see the wire cut brick that matches the brick in the garage and then these cast stone portions of a jack arch along with the smooth brick in between them. So the request for the demolition of a two-bay one-story, this request is for the demolition of a two-bay one-story historic garage. The garage is documented on the 1934 Sanborn insurance maps, which were included in your package. So the garage occurs at the same time in the first Sanborn that we have available with this area. The garage is constructed of double white brick walls with a tile parapet cap on the west, north, and south sides, with a low slope roof draining to the east into a gutter, and that is above the garage doors. The west elevation is constructed of wire coat brick up to the roof line and smooth brick at the parapet. A man door with a wood lentil and one double hung window with a brick arch at the head occur on this elevation. A single double hung window with a steel angled lentil, which appears to have been cut in at some later date, is located in the south elevation. The two garage doors are located in the east elevation, separated by a wood post. There are no openings in the north wall. The combination of wire cut and smooth brick is referenced in the primary structure, notably in the jack arches above the window details. The roof framing has been replaced with modern lumber, so all of the roof is new using current nominal dimensional lumber. The new accessory structure workshop office proposed to replace the garage is a single story brick accessory structure with approximately, of approximately 24-9 by 24-9 feet. The brick walls form parapets on the north and south and the roof slopes west within the parapets. Doors and windows are proposed to be aluminum clad wood. So if we go on to the drawings. So in this site plan, you can see the gray shaded area is the proposed accessory building and the dash line within that is the existing garage. I'll move on to the elevations. So you can see why we were referencing that it's replicating what is already there. Other than these changes to these doors that would be facing the rear of the primary structure and then the different windows on the north and south elevations. And then along the alley, there would be no, like, no, I'm wrong. This is the alley, I'm sorry. So the guidelines are included for your use. Along the photographs, the survey of the area, and the Sanborn maps are so included. Findings. As referenced above, the garage is noted on the 1934 Sanborn Insurance Company map, the same as the primary structure. Although the garage has been modified over time, it still retains its massing form and historic character. Staff finds that the proposal to demolish the historic structure does not meet the guidelines. The design principle states, demolition of historic buildings permanently alters the character of the individual sites, streetscape, building, or district grouping. Demolition of buildings and structures in historic districts and of landmark structures should be only an action of last resort. Additionally, the proposal does not meet guidelines 6A and 6B, which state respectively, demolition should only occur as a last resort after all other avenues to protect the historic buildings and structures have been exhausted, and any original feature or part of a historic building should be avoided. The proposal does not meet guidelines 6D as the demolition would be detrimental to the character scale, rhythm, design, and importance of a group of buildings, streetscape, or district. The loss of this historic masonry structure would be detrimental to the site and the historic district. Based on the intact form, massing, character, and historic integrity, the proposal to demolish the garage accessory building is not within the design guidelines. The proposal to construct a new accessory structure as submitted would necessitate the demolition of an existing historic structure. In addition, the proposed design for a new accessory structure too closely mimics the design of the existing historic structure and as such is not within the design guidelines. The existing historic garage accessory structure should be retained and if more space is desired by the property owner, study should be given to the possibility of adding a small addition to the south side of the existing structure. The recommendation staff recommends denial of the demolition of the historic garage and denial of the proposed new accessory building. Deadline for board action at this time per COVID-19 related executive orders. all right Barry if you'll stop sharing the screen thank you never know how to proceed first are there any questions from the board members before we get into Mr. Book's presentation sorry I'm not hearing anything okay Mr. Book All right. Thank you very much. And first of all, let me just say this here. We have enjoyed working with the Historic Preservation Society for a number of years, and we don't want to be argumentative, but I'm just trying to do... But you're going to be argumentative. I am just trying to do my job and my due diligence for my client. That's understood. Yes, sir. And so we have been working in historic districts for a long, long time and had a good standing relationship. I did a little bit of research myself. We had an engineer come out, Brian Johnson with Pogue Engineering. He did a structural study, which we put in that report to Barry. Likewise, we found this here. There was no evidence. The building is there. Talked with Dewey Crow, and there is no evidence there that the building that is standing there today was the same building that was built at that time. The reason why we're saying that is the inconsistency. I understand that the brick there that we have wire cut and we have smooth brick, but they are consistently placed on the home. On the garage, they are not consistently placed. And when we look at the back wall, and the engineer found this for me, the back wall has a pretty good bow in it. And so it seems, in my opinion, and in Brian's opinion with Pope Engineering Firm, that the original structure probably had a flat roof on it. Again, this is just speculation, but the back wall has been pushed out. There are no header brick or there are no spacer brick to tie the back wall together. And one thing that I learned as a young man, when my dad had a guy laying brick, and as a child I had seen this, my dad would make sure that the guy that was laying the brick carried on on that wall, right? And when you turn a corner, he should, on a building this size, the same rhythm should be used when laying that brick. You have header brick every seven courses or spacer brick that ties that double brick wall together. The back wall does not have that. It's laid in a different method. So therefore, leads me to believe, and likewise, Brian Johnsmith, Pogue Engineering, that the back wall was completely gone and has been relayed. At that point, we also found CMUs at the back of the rear wall down along the bottom. Now, what's interesting in talking to Dewey Crow, in 1961, there was a fallout shelter that was built in the basement of that house using CMUs. Those CMUs could have been used to replace the back wall at that same time. Again, don't know. But when I look at that building and I see the five components, roof and four walls, the roof, the framing, which we didn't, and I have interior pictures that I sent to Barry, but the conventional framing lumber is actually back into the back wall and it's grouted around. that tells me they did not attach with the ledger that tells me that it was put in there at the same time either cut out busted out and brick were laid back in and that conventional lumber which was not old growth lumber but it was new conventional lumber inch and a half product inch and a half there were two by six and two bay rafters that were put in through there the headers are a mess. The roof system is completely overspanned. And we have plywood all over the roof deck. There's no one by. I am not an advocate of tearing down historical buildings. My son and my daughter have two homes that were built in the 30s and in the 20s. And we saved those houses here in Woodford County. And they have old growth lumber. And you can see the white poplar. And you can see that structural lumber. This, the entire roof is all modern lumber, and Barry highlighted that. My argument is the front. We have metal garage doors. The entire front of that has conventional lumbers, which are not properly spaced. They're not put in properly. We have conventional modern lumber front and on the roof, and the only bit of lumber in that building that looks like it came with the original was there as a center post where the center ledger beam runs through the middle of that building and it's been added on to by about two and a half to three feet so it's my assumption that that building was there with a flat roof and then it was in dire need of repair, they took that down, they've reframed that building, and when they did that, they lost the back wall. And they've come in and they've relayed the back wall because there are three types of brick on that building. So when I start looking at a building that has historical significance, I look and go 20%, 20%, you got five components. The roof, there's 20%. The front wall, we can't argue that that was original it's all modern lumber inch and a half product and i have pictures of that also and then my assumption and brian johnson you have a different method on the back wall with cmus down at the ground level and then you have a brick wall that is not locked together and is starting to bow and if they were going to put that building together that would have been a load point on that back wall and that wall would have definitely been tied together with leader or header brick or a stretcher brick turning every seven forces. That wall doesn't have that but the two sides do. So my position is that the method and the rhythm that they laid that back wall is completely different and on the house yes they have two different types of brick But they are uniform and it is neat. And if it was built at the same time, you would have had the same thing with the accessory structure. They would have used the same time and care to put that building together. You know, to me, we don't have all the pieces of this puzzle. There have been various reasons, different issues that have come up over time, and we want to do something. I'm sure that my client, we were trying to do something that looked in character with the neighborhood. If that means that we need to go back to the drawing board and change the materials on the outside and hardy siding, we just want to be able to assist Carl and Joellen Kuhn to put something back there that is functional and usable. Likewise, this morning, and I know I've taken more than three minutes and I apologize. I went over this morning, Carl dug a hole down. I went down and we actually have measured the footings as of this this morning. And there are it's only 16 inches down in the ground. And so we wouldn't even comply with that. And we did put numbers together, what it would take and it just seems economically impossible. not impossible but unreasonable at this time to try to save a building that the entire roof would have to go the floor inside has been patched the front wall needs to be rebuilt all we have are two side walls and the footings are not even deep enough to comply with current code since 1978 Okay, so structurally speaking, are you saying that this building has lost its structural integrity as well? Yes, it has. Okay. And that's based on the analysis, let me finish, that's based on the analysis furnished to you by Pogue Engineering? Yes, sir. Okay. How do you think that rear wall came about again? Do you think it was just completely rebuilt? Yes, sir. How would they do that? well well so so what what what i feel and brian johnson was the one that picked up on this when he's walking around that building brian says john he goes look here there are he called them he called them header brick but it's a stretcher course where you turn them sideways every seven courses and it locks those double load-bearing walls together and when he pointed that out he He goes, look, every seven courses you have that. He goes, on the back wall, it's not there. And so when you look at the back wall, there are no stretcher or header brick. When you go to the inside of that wall, you have nothing on the inside of that building. But on the inside side walls, you can see that. You see a half brick, and they're stacked every seven courses. so the back wall um now it is separating um and it is starting to bow out and that's a load point when you've got a shed roof you've got front and back where your load points are sitting and so they would have never put that in in my opinion uh they would have never done that without locking those walls together any questions comments from the board members Ms. Hill any questions can I comment please Jim sure this is Carl Coon for just a moment I'll be right back okay should we wait or I apologize my cat came in and wanted my attention I've got the same problem. Mine's likely to jump on the table. It's a supper time for the cat. So I'm Carl Kuhn, 336 Hampton Court, the property owner. My wife and I have lived here for 29 years now. Love the neighborhood, love the home, feel lucky to have taken a chance on it many years ago and gotten into it. we've done everything we can to maintain the home and the property and the garage, although we've always considered it no more than a storage shed and have always been perplexed by the brickwork on it and the rear addition to the house, which unfortunately wasn't in Barry's slide deck. But there is a five to six foot extension on the back of the house that is enclosed and was obviously added after the original house was built. It's not toothed in. The brick on it are not toothed in to the original structure. And the brick on this back porch, which I'm sitting on, matched the brick on the garage. My point being, I think the board's recommendation is based on the theory that that is the original structure that was built with this house in the 20s. and while the insurance company map shows a structure there, I would argue with John that if there was a structure, it was only those two side walls that remain. The rest of the building more closely matches this rear addition to the house, which was certainly added afterwards than any other work within the house. to us it really comes down to making something usable of this and we've had quotes we've tried to work with john on how we might be able to save that structure it's just financially unreasonable to to rebuild it in a way that would be usable for anything other than a storage shed we have talked to all our neighbors about it i wish like miss hill's neighbor i had invited one to come on. But all of our neighbors approve of what we're doing. The building itself can only be seen by two neighbors. It's not even visible from the street. Actually, it can be seen by the transi students from their dorm as well, but they see the garage doors on the back of it. So, you know, for us, it's, we're trying to come up with a way to use that space. We tried to replicate what's there if that's not an approval idea we're certainly open to ideas of a different format for the new structure but honestly as we were going through the process the last thing I considered was being denied for tearing down what's there it's just it's um let me ask you a couple questions real quick have you actually worked up figures as to what it would cost to repair the building? John has done several estimates on that. Because we probably need, John, if you've not submitted those into the record, you probably need to. I did. So that we can have them for our record. And obviously we've not had a chance to see those numbers. We may need some time to review them. I'm not sure. Barry? The structural engineers report and some emails between Mr. Book and myself, along with a preliminary estimate were included in your package. If you're talking about paragraph four of that memo, that's sort of sketchy, as the truth be known. It's preliminary. Yes, Ms. Irwin. I just wanted to ask that I am looking at the, from EHI, the rough estimate of the cost to repair that structure it is my it seems to me that this is simply to get the envelope of the building structurally sound and standing it doesn't do anything towards making the space inside usable anything more than okay So, and I just roughly added that up and it's close to $77,000 just to make the envelope structurally sound. Is that correct? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. I think it was a little, and again, we- A little less than that, but it's about being rounded up to about $77,000. Correct. Yes, yes, ma'am. And you're the owner. Your intention is to try to create an accessory space that is like a conditioned space. Yes. Right. For an office use for a workshop or studio type area. Yes. Don't question. Go ahead. I'm sorry, Suzanne. Go ahead. And I may have missed this when I was looking at this, but do you have a rough estimate of the new structure that you're looking at, the cost of that, and does that include it? John, do you have that handy? Yes. Yeah. So, well, this is before the pandemic hit, and we had all the – yeah, with lumber. I tell you what, I've had sleepless nights. I've had tons of sleepless nights, but we are, here we go. Here we go. The approximate estimate that we put together right now is $106,550.32. and that was for the building that we designed again plywood has gone from twelve dollars to twenty six uh framing lumber has gone up like likewise but at that time when we put this plan together so we're about thirty thousand dollars ish give or take more than just taking and stabilizing the footings, putting shelf footings around. And that was a major concern. And I'll tell you one thing that I saw as a young man, and I did it myself and my dad bawled me out. When you take a masonry wall and lean a ladder on it, once you break the bond of that wall, that's where your strength is at until you have ties. So in this here, and I've seen it happen at Woodford County, whenever they were building the Kroger's, you have to buck those or buck those walls up all the way around. And when you do that, my concern right now, and I showed this to Barry when we met out there, that front wall is leaning out and there is a three quarter of an inch separation from the header and that brick wall is leaning out. Carl on the inside has taken and put two by fours on the roof system that is going down to a floor that was skim coated over top of with like a Sika top product. And if he wouldn't have put those two befores in there, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I will guarantee you that roof is bowing down. All the plywood is wet and that thing is leaning down and it's pushing the right wall out. My concern is if you get a snow this winter that we have a 12 to 14 inch snow and it freezes and we get ice dam and you have additional weight that wall if those tuba pores were not in there and they got moved because you're in there working or moving something around and he has nice tools in there that wall will push out and it will be in the neighbor's yard and take the fence and if there are any children or anybody out in the yard or puppy dogs it could really be bad could really be bad okay you've been doing a lot of speculating i think you're beginning to get a little a field I understand that but it is a possibility okay as I said if we've got Suzanne I'm not sure what numbers you were looking at the only thing I have is the analysis from Pogue accompanied by an email that had about four points and I didn't see the other maybe I just missed it I'm not reading it correctly the other numbers that you obtained and Barry is showing me something is that from the packet Barry? Yes sir I can't make out what you got It is economy home improvement of Lake Kentucky as the top line Okay Oh okay, alright I have seen that Alright I see it, I got it Okay. Any other questions or comments from the board members? I'll go ahead and speak up. From what I can see on the garage as it exists, it looks like a bit of a Frankenstein, to be honest. honest. It doesn't carry any of the original sort of patterning or detail from the bigger house. So I think the most significant things about it are its form, its scale, and its location. And then I'm, well, let me leave it at that for the moment, and we can go back to the money in a it. Yes, Michelle. Yeah, I, I, um, enough questions have been raised about the original historic nature of it. I'm not questioning that the footprint and scale of it, um, reflects the history, but the current materials and construction, that it does create some ambiguity that doesn't make it quite as straightforward as it would kind of seem to be on first glance. I'd like to comment that I also feel that way that with the many many different types of brick that are used on those walls and that that it it doesn't feel like it's what was there from 1920 except for the footprint and the style and the shape of it which I do think is very important for the historic aspects of that area, having a garage in that place, but, or an accessory building, but I question whether those bricks were original. Well, and I, I like that the proposal includes staying close to that scale with an accessory building as opposed to expanding and to be a large garage really value that the scale stays pretty close not not quite there but close okay that that raises the next issue I'm I'm hearing a consensus from the board members that perhaps the garage is not meritorious of preservation but I'm not sure I want us to move forward in a two-step process and then suddenly have, to use Josh's word, a Frankenstein suddenly erupt on us with the new garage design. So I'm wondering if there is a consensus, and I think there is, that the new garage design is not appropriate, that perhaps we should push this off and let them bring in new design plans that might be more compatible and more acceptable to the staff? Is that what I'm hearing from the board members? I'm not so opposed to the new design. It's made out of brick. It's got a scale and a form that I think is appropriate on the site. I didn't notice any detailing that mimicked the headers and the seals on the original structure, the house. So I don't have a great problem with the new design. either. All right, Ms. Hill, let's have a conversation about that. Ms. Hill? Yeah, I would say that the design per se, maybe not, but because it does, the form of it does so closely with the scale and the form so closely mimic what is there and has been that I'm not sure quite where where that leads us whether it's a change in materials maybe it's the brick itself that ties it back to the history of the original house and the use of slightly more 21st century materials would help separate that to make clear that this isn't pretending to be a historic building, even though the form and scale of it's very similar, but bring it a little more into the 21st century. So I'm not proposing a final solution. I'm just suggesting there does seem like there's a little room for some continuation here. The question is how the owner feels about that. Okay, Ms. Irwin, do you have any thoughts on that? I feel that the scale and the shape and the placement on the site is what is the most important thing that continues the rhythm of that historic pattern of that neighborhood. So I feel that replacing the garage with the form and the shape that is there that has been proposed, I feel that that is appropriate. I understand that what the guidelines that it's not meeting is that it is a very close mimic of what is there, which is in, according to the guidelines, too much of a confusion as to whether it is a historic building or it's not a historic building. So I understand that that's the guideline that is under consideration of why the new design would be not something that we could approve or would not meet the guideline. And Mr. Book, I think to clarify that your efforts to recreate a new brick structure is what's causing the confusion. That's counterintuitive. You would think that's something that would be what we would like to have. But the notion behind historic preservation is that the new people on the block should clearly be delineated a new person and not a clone of something that had been there before. Now, procedurally, and I think, Ms. Kerr or someone, I need some guidance. Procedurally, how should we proceed? I think I'm hearing consensus, and I'm in agreement that this garage, there's enough ambiguity about its historic integrity that I don't think, I think it got bastardized in the 1960s at some point, And so it lost a lot of its historic integrity, if you will, through the probably a remake of that garage. And so we can authorize its demolition. But I want to make sure that we don't move forward with the demolition and then be left with a blank hole. So, Ms. Kerr, any thoughts on this matter? well i would just uh remind the board you've seen our report i i'm not here to lobby you for the outcome but i think the it is a historic building it has had changes there's no question of that i think it's trouble came in the structural sense when somebody wanted a two car two garage doors put on that back wall and they blew out that back wall and that is provided and I don't disagree with the issues you're raising about what it's challenged by but I think it is important to recognize that as an architectural historian it has a cousin I will tell you uh out at Ashland Henry Clay's home um that was it's it's a automobile garage added to a smokehouse it's adjacent to the smokehouse out there. And it's a very similar thing where you have common bond, masonry wall, shed roof, all this kind of thing. So I think this is the garage that is on the Sandburn fire insurance maps. Is it a garage that has physical problems? There's no question it does. But I think process wise, in terms of where you go from here, obviously that's the board's decision. I think that replicating it is quite contrary to the guidelines. And referencing it as closely as this proposal does is expressly why we recommend the disapproval of the new build as proposed, because it, you know, whether or not it has the identical window openings or the same jack arch treatment, those have already all been altered on that building anyway. So nobody's standing there and suggesting to you that copying those or not copying those results in mimicking history. That building has a long story to tell through its changes over time. So I think it's important to stay away from mimicking those changes and or the original building's footprint, volume, and so forth, because the guidelines are very clear that it is to be representative and easily readily identifiable. Now, it is, of course, important that it be properly scaled for the context in which is available for it to be built. The owners would want that, the neighborhood would want that, property needs that, but I think you need to look at your materials, and I think you need to look at the articulations of how this is any new buildings to be accomplished, so that it is less a first cousin of what might be torn down. I think your options are in terms of methodology, what you already probably know, which is to continue this case and continue it for a long enough time that the owner and their contractor and others involved in this can put forward whatever proposals they would like to reflective of what they're hearing at the meeting today. And I don't recommend that you issue, that you take a final action on the demolition of the garage, resulting in the issuance of a permit, because that really contradicts what our process is charged with and could, through no one's intent, and end up with this kind of speculative removing and an open void left, that there's nothing that procedurally would guarantee another building comes back, which I know is your intent as the property owner. But I just think for the process to keep its nose clean, we want to be sure that we always have conditioned a demolition upon having plans for the new construction and those be approvable, not just holding those plans, but they be approvable plans. So I would suggest a continuation for your consideration as one means to get there if indeed you're interested in a something that would open the door to building a new building on this site. And I think let me get my thoughts on this and then I'll listen to it. We'll have comments from the other board members. Mr. Book if you are agreeable, I think what we really need to do is push this out a couple of months, maybe to our November meeting. I would like to see put into the record a little bit better proof as to the numbers that you're going to be using in terms of the new construction and in terms of what it would cost to rehab this building. That's a requirement under Chapter 13. The numbers, to me, strike me as being a little too sketchy, and I'd rather not have us do the math or rather have you all do the math the burdens on you the other thing is if you have any additional proof as to the evolution of that building that would be helpful in helping us make our determination and then finally i do think we need to have a an accessory building that we can approve this one we can't so if you all are in agreement and if the staff or if the other board members agree with me, then I think maybe we're ready to move forward with a motion after hearing comments from the audience. So, Mr. Book, you're on. Okay, and we appreciate everything that you all have been saying, and if Carl and Joellen are fine, I just want to make them happy, and I want you all happy. I want everybody happy. And so we're not trying to do anything sneakily. We just want to make sure that this building, and honestly, we have built a number of buildings before, and I don't do this month in and month out. We do maybe three or four historic projects a year, And we've been doing this for a number of years. And some of these other projects that we've turned out in my mindset were closely replicating what was there, a board and backing garage or a hardy siding garage. and so that's what we were trying to do there trying to keep things and I am under understanding now a little bit better what you all are asking so if Carl and Joellen are fine with moving back and sitting down and having more conversation I would like some assistance in like recommending like if the shape and form if we're three feet bigger you know if you said hey John why don't you go maybe a foot bigger instead of going, you know, a 20 foot building is very shallow. And if it was ever modified down the road to put a vehicle in, you couldn't put a full size pickup truck in there. And so that's why we pushed it to those dimensions, the 24 by 24 ish. So that spatially it would work. So if Carl and Joellen are fine pushing this back, the shape and form, we would do whatever. And we could change the materials. We could put a hardy siding on the outside of it. I've actually got a material question for this, Jim. Okay. I think, Ms. Hill, did you have a comment before I sort of jumped in? You're still muted. I'll hold it. Okay, Mr. Gilpin, and I'll come back to you, Carl, in just a moment. Okay. Mr. Gilpin? Yeah, sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Book, but similar to your form questions, I actually have a material one for the staff. Is it a use of any brick that we are opposed to so much on this, or would contemporary sizes or finishes kind of relieve that struggle? I think the latter, that something identifiable as more of today would help relieve that matter. I think the, I genuinely do believe it's an architectural story and this is the old building. This is the real deal. It has just had hard times. And so I think that, well, I think I'll throw in, it needs to be documented if it is indeed going to be allowed to be going down. So think about that. Measured up, photographed, all the things that go with that. But you all haven't voted yet on that, so I'm not suggesting that you all vote here again. But I have ears, and I'm listening closely. So back to the materials. I think that certainly, I mean, masonry is used in today's time, just as it has been for the last 250 years in our community. or 200 years, maybe giving them a little too long. So I think masonry is an option, but I think it does need to have in its definition of size and scale and so forth and the manner in which it's utilized be recognizable as something happening in 2020, not happening in circa 1900 to 1920. and things like a parapet that is so much a signature of a early 20th and late 19th century and further back building that getting away from a parapet idea might help other things that still respect the scale the height the volume of the site which if it were a blank slate with the first thing that you'd be addressing as we do with all our projects and you as a board know it better than any of us you know you first get that form scale mass volume and and setting as in specific where you're going to put it on the parcel to work for you and then and then you go from there Mr. Coon I want to hear from you are you in agreement are you not opposed to our thoughts that you may push this out a couple months I would ask if we could possibly get it into next month but beyond that and I know there would be a lot of work to do in the meantime I think trying to do it in a month is pushing it to be honest with you and I think Mr. Book might charge you double time to get it done. All right. He might charge you pandemic time. Also, I would just say so you're not yearning for thinking, oh gosh, if only we couldn't, the process couldn't both get the design in in time, receive the design in time, and get the legal notice criteria met. I know that your thought may have been optimistically trying to avoid pushing it in the winter, but everything has just been slowed. Everything was COVID and the delays so far, it's already been a long process. But like John, I appreciate all the discussion and your consideration. The only other question I would ask is where should we go for guidance on the structure itself? Is that just to submit a new plan and see if it floats, or is that something that the staff can help with as we're moving through it. Staff is always there to give you input as to whether you're going in the right. Sometimes it may seem like a process of saying, you're getting warm, you're getting warm as opposed to being cold. But to do that at schematics, and Mr. Book knows this well, to do that at schematics level of drawings instead of full-blown construction level drawings. saving both energies and frankly finance in terms of the drawing expenses. So we would encourage you to, with some schematics, to work out from yourselves as the property owners with Mr. Book, you know, two or three schematics depicting some options that then we could all have talking points and the staff would be glad. You know, we're meeting with people out in the field more than ever. We've always met with people at their properties. And given the COVID, if you're happy with it, we could just meet in your backyard, quite frankly. Okay. Certainly if that suits you. I'm not inviting ourselves over. But by the way, you have the most magnificent oak tree in your front. Isn't that something? I had to, when I was over looking about the building, as I walked back down your driveway, I had to stop and take pictures of your tree. It's just magnificent. But anyway, so I'd get another chance to see your treat if we met in your backyard. But, you know, I'm not, we would not try to meet with you inside anywhere. We'll wear our masks. We'll follow the proper protocols. And we'd be glad to do anything we can to help you. Okay. Do I have any further comments or questions? Yes, Ms. Hill. So what I, this kind of ties back around to these last statements is that really just doing something on a more of a kind of sketch basis to get us get you where you need to be before hardlining something that then comes before the board and with the staff having both heard our words and this conversation I think can give you great guidance okay I think let me see if there's any comments or observations from our virtual audience I'll give that a count of 10 okay then I think if I'm hearing the consensus correctly I think we're ready for a motion to continue this proceeding to November I believe the date's 18th November 18th Is that correct? I'm just double checking. Yes, November 18th is correct. All right. Do I have a motion? So moved. Do I have a second? Second. All right. The motion before the chair is that we continue these proceedings to November 18th to give the applicant an opportunity to present design drawings that might be more acceptable to the staff and to ourselves and also to put into the record additional evidence justifying the demolition. Now, I want to be clear, we have not yet approved the demolition of your building. So it better still be there when she goes out to the oak tree. All right, thank you. All right, hearing no further discussion on the motion, the chair will call the question. And all those in favor of continuing this proceeding to November 18, 2020, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. Motion carries and this proceeding is continued. Thank you very much. Thank you. You've been very patient with us. Thank you very much, guys. All right. All right. Turning to our last application at 151 Penn Moken. The owners are Virginia and Cynthia Vogt. The applicant is Brad Wood. Are they present? uh vinceville is here yeah i'm i'm not virginia okay oh oh that's a virginia i apologize that's all right i've had worse can you uh can't do you want to be seen or are you just trying to figure out i don't have a problem with it but uh i can't get it to work this is my first zoom meeting and uh okay if you're using a computer somewhere along the top you should see a option to turn on your camera. There you are. Well, see, I didn't have that until I was enabled, I guess. Sometimes they have to bring you in physically sometimes. Mr. Vogt, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I don't know if you can hear me from the computer or not. I'll hang the phone up if you can. You're doing well. So far we're hearing you appropriately. The scope of work is to build a front porch and the staff has reviewed your application and has decided, has made a recommendation to us that that application should be denied. I'm assuming you would like to be heard on it. I would. We go ahead. Our normal procedure is allow the staff to make a presentation first. and we'll ask questions of the staff members. After the staff has finished, it's basically they're doing their presentation of a case. When they finish that, then we'll turn to you and let you discuss the reasons for why you think the application should be approved. Thank you. So this will take about a 10 to 15 minute process. You may have heard Mr. Book infer that he only had three minutes. You have within reason as much time as you need to make your presentation. Okay all right so Ms. Armstrong I'm assuming you're the staff person assigned to this case? All right if you'll start your presentation then please. Okay hold on let's start this sharing to the screen and see how this works. Can you everybody see the screen? Just see the selection screen, not the actual file itself. All right, how about now? That's it. Good. Great. Thank you. All right. So this is the property at 151 Penmocan. And Mr. Bolton and I met on site earlier this summer to discuss the case. And of course, this is in the new Pensacola Historic District, which became a historic district, I believe in early December. And so prior to that meeting, Mr. Belt had actually acquired permits to do work in the back out in addition and a new garage in the back. And so that work had continued. However, the work for the front porch and his other work were not on the permit that he had acquired from building inspection. So he was left to the point where he had made application for the porch. and of course because of the historic district being in, he is now through our process to ask for that work and I think it's been outlined in my cover sheet, but to repeat this, so he's asked to add a new front porch that spans beyond the width of the house and accommodate two staircases on either side of the house leading to the back. The stairs on the west side lead just to the rear of the house and of course it would be just right here and then the stairs on the east side will lead onto a handicap or accessible ramp leading onto the driveway. The other proposal would be to center the front door. As you see here, the door is not quite centered. In addition, his proposal would be to install the new front porch across that which would eliminate the proposal to eliminate the new the stoop that's existing and add another dormer that would be centered and so and and then also replace the front door with the door and the side light which we'll see in the plane here later and also the the door choice that he's requested it also is in the packet so just to give you and then That's the existing door now, which is of course obviously been replaced from its original door. The house, of course, is vinyl sided with vinyl replacement windows already. And you can see the new addition that was added back here last year, as well as the new garage. and he did actually I think within the last year or two and Mr. Volk can correct me on this add those dormers so his proposal would be adding a center dormer and then of course there's preformed stairs on either side of the stoop in the proposal for the porch would be 40 by 8 feet out 40 feet wide of course and we're only dealing of course with front porch so here is what he's proposing as far as the floor plan of the front porch new stairs lean out and that this is where proposal for stairs on this side and then accessible ramp on the southeast side and again a little bit more closer look at the proposal this is the existing chimney so the stairs and laning will be right at come right at the chimney on this particular side and then come down along the driveway on this side on the southeast side. And here's the proposed porch. The proposal calls for a steam scene metal roof and we've discussed that it'll have an 18 inch rib, span between the ribs and the rib height would only be less than an inch and a half. The materials for the porch decking columns and in railing system are all proposed to be composite as well as the lattice will be composite and and here is this is along that southeast side the ramp and these are just from me framing details rest on this particular image and of course and I think, I mentioned, here's the side light door he's proposing, as well as the center door. And the proposal does call for square columns. There'll be six-inch fiberglass square columns. Guidelines are included for your reference. The proposal to modify this Cape Cod style house requires further discussion. The proposed plan to construct a new porch across the front results in the loss of much of the identifying features of a Cape Cod house style. According to the same board maps, the structure has always had a small front stoop in the design principle for porches and new construction says, porches are often prominent features of the building and help establish scale, proportion, and rhythm along the streetscape. Construction of a porch on existing building should be compatible and scale materials and principal structure adjacent surrounding buildings and distinction in district. Porches should be keeping in principle structure of architectural style and not reflect reflected earlier period style. The proposed front porch overwhelms the house. In addition, the material choices for the front porch are not within the LFUC design guidelines for front porches. Guidelines 1.13G states PVC and or composite synthetic materials are not permitted. The proposal to shift the door and sidelight is not within the Guidelines 1.1A, which states architectural detail should be maintained and retained should not be removed or changed original to the building. Changing and adding additional elements to the court opening is not within the Guidelines. The proposal to install a new doorway, a dormer on the front elevation is not, is more appropriate within the historic district of 3A by B, which is former should not be introduced on front elevations that may be added to the rear secondary elevations if part of what buildings decide. Recommendations. Staff recommends denial of the proposal as the project is proposed and staff would note that they're we are available to work with the property owners to find solutions to bring to the buyer to accomplish an accessible ramp and of course the applicant is present and i will stop the sharing in case there's any questions you have right now while we have the plans up Neely, I have a quick question. The note about the staff being available to review how to accomplish the accessible ramp, does that also include revisiting the front porch and seeing if there is any option to enlarge it, just not take it all the way across the front of the house? And I'm mostly looking at the staff notes about the scale of that porch going all the way across, overwhelming the house. And I think that's up for discussion. to be and that might be you know we had you know part of we wanted to have this meeting first and talk to mr. bolt about what his with what you all are proposing or thinking about as well as his thoughts on this I'm sorry mr. Dickinson I've fixed it. And to follow up on that question, is something as large as a half porch completely out of the question? I think that's part of something that could be discussed, but I think there's maybe a way to do it that potentially. Because the issue here is if they're trying to put in some kind of a walkway ramp, making sure there's enough room to maneuver, that stoop is so small, it's going to have to widen somehow to accommodate the wheelchair or whatever device is being used to come through the front door. Also, this may be a strange question. I know the guidelines are very clear about vinyl materials. Am I correct in understanding this entire house is vinyl? That is correct. Okay. But I would just say within our guidelines, you know. So the weird kind of question is, is sort of maintaining vinyl artificial materials consistent with the design of this house? I think that's a question for you all. But it's just, yeah. But it's just not allowed within the guidelines, period. you know if he were to ask us he did you know but if he asked us prior to this you know when he wrapped the house you know so many years ago it's been wrapped so many times I think it's very little it's little wiggle room on that because the guidelines are so finite about not asking for vinyl or not putting the question in the first time it's just that this is a newer neighborhood and there's been some extensive changes made to it okay any other questions from staff or for the board members okay mr vote thank you for hearing me today I'm glad I guess you got to see me finally the project started on the garage in the great room last year it It was all one big project. We got one quote from one contractor. And not knowing how the process worked, we were assured that he took care of everything. And last October, I was on him about the permits for the porch, having learned some of the methods that are used for construction. and he assured me that the porch drawings were to be submitted this day and then that day and then another day and anyway it never got done until January which was after the change of zoning and the project started you know we were we were you know 80 percent done with everything when it changed and already had our vinyl on. The garage was the new color vinyl, as well as the dormers on the front of the house. We were locked in and then the rug pulled out from underneath us. So if things had been, you know, responsibly done, we wouldn't be having this conversation. and the porch would be as it is depicted there. The contractor walked out, took my deposit, and I'm currently trying to get that back. It was a large sum of money. I'm sorry to hear that, Mr. Vought. I mean, this should not have to happen to you, and there are regulatory boards that you may want to report him to as well? I have tried to do that. He's not listed on much. We started this project, you know, we've been here 34 years. Next week will be 34 years. We started this project 32 and a half years into our living here, our owning house, and finally got to a point where we can, you know, live in a place we call home and make it look like a plant-a-look. Had these designs and drawings and everything done and contacted a contractor, and then we had, you know, basically our feet cut out from underneath us. My wife has been suffering with MS for 20-some years and planned many improvements on the inside of the house and everything we can in here to accommodate wheelchairs. And the ramp was to be the icing on the cake for it from the side of the house over there from the driveway. We made the driveway where it would accommodate that over the years, and this was to be the icing on the cake. Well, I think the design guidelines can give you some wiggle room with trying to, as Ms. Hill was alluding to, that there may be a way to give you a porch. It just can't be across the entire width of the house porch. But to give you some room so that your wife's wheelchair can be accommodated and, frankly, give her space to be able to sit out front if she wants to sit out front and watch the traffic or whatever it may be. I'll go ahead and express my personal opinion. This particular plan can't be approved. I mean, it's just too far away from the guidelines. But we want to work with you and we want to be able to accomplish what will make your house more livable for you. And so, you know, this is where the staff does come in and the staff has been in the past very cooperative in these kinds of projects. Do I have any questions or comments from the other board members? All right. do I have any questions or comments from my virtual audience? Hearing none, am I ready for a motion then to approve the disapproval of this application? Can I request a continuance? Yes, you may. We could continue. Actually, that may be the best way to do this is to continue the proceedings and let you submit new plans. now I wasn't too concerned about disapproving this particular application because anything will be so different from your original application that you're not going to be borrowed from resubmitting but if you like to have a continuation that might be the the best way we can approach this okay which is your preference would you like to continue this till November? Yes. Okay. All right then. In light of Mr. Vogt's... I'm sorry how do you pronounce your last name sir? It's like V-O-T-E. Okay. Vote. Do I have motion then to continue these proceedings to our November 18 meeting? So moved. Do I have a second? Yes. Second for Mr. Gilpin. Any discussion on the motion? If not, then the chair calls the question. All those in favor of continuing this proposal proceeding to November 18, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed nay? Aye. Motion passes and we are continued to our November 18, 2020 meeting. Mr. Vogt, thank you so much for your cooperation and ability to work with us. Thank you. All right. Thank you, sir. I believe we have two other items on our agenda. One is the revised meeting schedule for the rest of the year. On that, what we're doing, recommending to you all, is that we're proposing to revise what is the standing 2020 meeting calendar, which of course we haven't for six or seven months now been able to participate in as it was approved back for the start of the year. So what you see is similar to what we've done the last couple of months, third Wednesday of each month, one meeting a month for the three months, October, November, and December. and then we will be bringing to you probably in November a proposed 2021. But everybody knows this is all kind of who knows how things will shake out as far as things, but we wanted to try to get away from having to do the special meeting piece of the process in terms of the information that has to go out and so forth and so on. We could, I don't think we can fail to mention to you, even if we set these for these three meeting dates, sometimes things get bumped at the last minute. We've talked with you all about that before, tied to other issues of council and mayor's office and meetings and so on. But this is our best stab at trying to get some rhythmic schedule going. And that's why it's only for the three months. And then, you know, we're just kind of take baby steps and come to you again with another one. I don't know if you can get a fly on your throat when you're wearing a mask or not. Particularly when you're standing in the council chamber. but anyway that's what's behind this is to just try to to creep forward with a little bit of predictability well and that's that's perfectly understandable so do I have a motion to accept the the amended agenda calendar for our next three meetings and do I have a second second all right any discussion on the motion if not I'll call the question all those in favor say aye aye aye motion passes thank you next item is the approval of the agenda I mean I'm sorry next next item is the approval of the minutes and I don't have the amended what were the date to August? 19. I'm sorry I didn't bring up my count I shut down my computer and I don't have the amended sheet in front of me. Yes. Give me five minutes. folks i'll have to let me step away for just a moment sorry I apologize. Sometimes life happens. So do I have the date of the minutes that we're trying to approve? August 19th. All right. Do I have a motion to approve those minutes? So moved. Do I have a second? Second. Second. All right. Were there, now that I've asked for the motion, were there any corrections that you all saw that needed to be made? I was just going to reference, not to interrupt you, but some of you, we thank you for sending us by email some of your suggested corrections. And we have received them. As you can tell, it's been quite the push. We're a little underwater in terms of everything that's trying to be accomplished, not just about BOER, but other things. So we do apologize for them being so last minute, but it was a squeak to get us there. So thank you for your emails. We will incorporate those changes that you all have each suggested. and Mr. Chair so you'll know they were usually related to some particular members comments and so forth and or punctuation issues and more generic kind of editing needs and we will be taking care of those things and so and Jim did you have any yourself I think you're the only one I really didn't have time today to look at it in detail. I saw some typos, and I saw a couple sentences that got garbled, but I'm assuming that they probably were seen by the other board members. And also, the case that is 221 Barberry, there were some, we've gone back and checked some specific sentences, but that is what the parties have said, some of those. And so we've been kind of wanting to reflect what was said. It's certainly not a transcription, all things you know, and by far not intended to be a transcription. But I think the process-wise, I don't think I have seen any needed changes that will take it away from what the content truly is saying. So they're not substantive changes is what I'm trying to say. But certainly there's some cleanup still needs to happen, but I don't believe they're substantive that would alter the, what the actual message is in the statements. And to be honest, I did not see anything, especially with the Barbary discussion, I didn't see anything that was substantively wrong. I saw some things. Basically, it felt like to me that maybe we were leaving out words and probably just putting the missing words in brackets would probably make this sentence more understandable. I don't disagree, and we can certainly try to do that. But there were occasions, you all might remember, that the applicant and the chair both were talking at the same time. And that is not a criticism. It is what happened. And court reporters complain about that all the time. So we've tried to do the best we can. What we really need, of course, is a professional who does minutes, and that all would be very helpful. But we don't have that, and so we're giving it our college try. and to be honest with you with the with this technology you should be getting a transcript of our recording of this meeting oh we have that we have that and the app the party for 221 barberry as an example has already been sent that the full on a thumb drive the whole thing that should be sufficient and so we're just intending you know as minutes always are but particularly in these scenarios, that word for word, moment to moment, is available to anyone who needs to or wants to request it. So, Ms. Kerr, to that end, you may want to take up with legal whether you all need to do the kind of minutes that you have been doing. Minutes can actually be just the board met and took following action as follows. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And that's it. The transcript of the testimony is available upon request. Right. And you notice we are getting much more summarizing and punchlessly. Right. And I would like to do even more of that because it is truly just a challenge. We're time overrun and taking, you know, doing truly really well done minutes, I think, is an art. And I'd be the first to say, I don't have that. And Amelia, who's working diligently on these things, is giving it the best try, but that's not her niche either. All right. Okay. With those comments made, do I have a motion to approve? I think I have a motion and second. Let me go ahead and call for the motion. All those in favor of approving the minutes, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Nay. The motion passes and the minutes are approved. Thank you. Anything else on our agenda? No. Okay. All right, then. Thank you for your time and diligence and patience. It's been a little bit of a long meeting, but I do appreciate the work that all of us do for the preservation of our downtown and Lexington in general. Thank you all, too. And we'll look forward to seeing you at least through the TV screen the 21st of October. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'll call. I'll ask for a motion to adjourn. So moved. So moved by Ms. Irwin and second by Mr. Gump. We stand adjourned. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Take care. Thank you, guys. Good night. All right. Be good. Take care of those children of yours, Josh. Watch the world go by while I unwind. Yeah, I'm always running, but I'm always running behind. guitar solo I'm lower on the ladder. I'm trying to climb. If I ever get lucky, if I ever get rich, don't I tow my life up out of this beach. Watch the world go by while I unwind. Yeah, I'm always running, but I'm always running behind. Lord, I'm always running But I'm always running big I, oh Lord Oh, oh, oh, oh Say where you're gonna go Girl, where you're gonna hide You go on leaving And I'm too high And on its own Inside Oh, darling From here I can feel your heart beat Oh, you've got me around You ain't got no worry You've just been lonely too long Oh, no, no I know what it means to hide your heart From a long time ago Oh darling It keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running It keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running It keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running Oh, I know how you feel Yeah, you know I've been there What you're keeping to yourself What are you doing just again? Hold on Are you gonna worry For the rest of your life? Are you in such a hurry? To be lonely one more time Well I know what it means to hide your heart From a long time ago Oh God It keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running I know it does, baby It keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running It keeps you running Yeah, it keeps you running It keeps you running Thank you. Rescue me Or take me in your arms Rescue me I want your tender charm But I'm lonely And I'm blue I need you And your love too Come on and rescue me Come on baby And rescue me Come on, baby, and rescue me Cause I need you by my side Can't you see that I'm lonely? Rescue me Come on and take my heart Take your love And comfort every part Cause I'm lonely And I'm blue I need you and your love too Come on and rescue me Come on, baby, and rescue me. Come on, baby, and rescue me. Cause I need you by my side. Can you see that I'm loving? Rescue me, protect me in your arms Rescue me, I want your tender charm But I'm lonely and I'm blue I need you and your love too Come on and rescue me, come on baby Take me baby, hold me baby Let me go, let me go Can't you see that I need you, baby? Can't you see that I'm lonely? Can you hear me? Come on and take my hand Come on, baby, and be my man Cause I love you, cause I want you Can't you see that I'm lonely? Take me, baby Love me, baby Need me, baby Can't you see that I'm lonely? Rescue me, rescue me I remember walking round the court square sidewalks Looking in windows, things I couldn't want There's Johnson's hardware and Morgan's jewelry And the only kings of Poth to carry They were the little man The little man I go back now and the stores are empty Except an old Coke sign dated 1950 Boarded up like they never existed Renovated and called historic districts There goes the little man There goes the little man Now the court swears just a set of streets And people go around but they seldom think About the little man that built this town Before the big money shut him down And killed the little man Oh, the little man He pumped your gas and he cleaned your glass One cold rainy night he fixed your flat New story came where you do it yourself You buy a lotto ticket and food off the shelf Forget the little man Forget about that little man He hung on there for a few more years He couldn't sell slurkins He wouldn't sell beer Now the bank rents a station To a man down the road And they sell velvet elvets And secondhand clothes There goes the little man There goes another little man Now the court square's just a set The streets and people go around, but they seldom think about the little man that built this town before the big money shut him down and killed the little man. Oh, the little man. Now the stores are lined up in a concrete strip You can buy the whole world in just one trip Save the penny cause it's jumbo size They don't even realize they're killing the little man you