Music Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The End I would like to welcome you to the September 15, 2021 meeting of the Board of Architectural Review. The board was established by zoning ordinance in 1958. Our first historic district was Grants Park and we now have a total of 16 historic districts. The board, which was appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the Urban County Council, is part of the Division of Historic Preservation. The Historic Preservation Office maintains a full-time staff to assist you with your projects. It is our procedure to consider applications in the order in which they're listed on our agenda. In each case, we'll have a presentation by the staff and we'll hear any additional comments from the applicant. I'll ask the parties that wish to be heard regarding an application to raise their, I'm sorry, this is the wrong format. to raise your digital blue hand but simply be present and come up to the podium and give your name and address for the public record the board will ask questions or make comments regarding the applications and hear comments from any other interested parties the chair will then ask the board members to enter a motion and take a final action I would like to note the following staff approvals before we begin our review of applications there are certain items that the staff can approve eliminating the necessity for applicants to appear before But I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Sarah back to the board. She was with us about four years ago. And so Sarah Lemire is with us again. So the applications that have been approved by the staff are as follows. On Belcourt at 625 Sarah Avenue, renovate structure. In the Ellesmere Park historic district, 645 Ellesmere Park, remove the deteriorated trees. In seven parks at 605 Arcadia Park, remove a deteriorated tree. In the Southland Ashland Central Avenue Historic District at 119 South Ashland, repave driveway. At 417 in the South Hill Historic District, 417 South Upper Street, replace roof. In the Woodward Heights at 303 Madison Place, restore rear entrance and replace fence. And in the western suburbs district at 601 West Main Street, renovate structure and site. We'll now turn to the applications. The first two applications involve the street where I live. So I am recusing myself and stepping off the podium until those cases are included. Ms. Meyer's case is not the first one up yet. Just a moment. We have a routine approval with Mr. Combs first. So I'm stepping off. Mr. Gilpin? We'll go ahead and look at case number 191-303-68-U at 368 Transylvania Park. Could you please state your name and address for the record? Tim Combs, 368 Transylvania Park. Thank you, sir. Mr. Gilpin, could you pull your microphone closer in? Yes. Is this better? That's much better. Thank you. Thank you. Staff has recommended approval of your application with our two standard conditions. Have you read those and are you in agreement with those? Yes. Okay. Are there any questions or comments from board members? Are there any questions or comments from the audience? If not, I will allow a motion. Chair, as per case number 191-30368-U at 368 Transylvania Park, I move that we approve the Certificate of Appropriateness with the Standard 2 conditions. Is there a second? Second. All right. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Aye. Aye. in favor and the motion is approved thank you and next we're gonna do 339 transylvania park hi And please state your name and address when you get back there. Do you have one of those for the record for the file? I just did four. I can give you, no, I don't. Maybe one of them can give it to you. Or I can email it to you. You can email it to us if you would. My name is Sue Mize. I live at 339 Transylvania Park. This is my husband, Neil. Thank you. Staff has recommended, sorry, I picked up the wrong one there. They've recommended denial of the application. Would you like to be heard on this? Absolutely. Okay. Okay. What we'll do is we'll have the staff do a presentation first, and after that occurs, we'll allow you to comment as well. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Okay. at the second floor level of the front elevation. Staff was conducting site visits on Transylvania Park and observed that the windows were being worked on at the subject park property without a COA. Staff stopped to determine the extent of the work that was ongoing. Staff talked to a worker who said they were replacing the three windows in question. The worker went on to state that the windows were in terrible condition and needed to be replaced. staff had a conversation with the applicant and staff was invited to inspect the locations of the proposed window replacement on the interior. The historic 30 over 1 wood windows were being replaced with 30 over 1 Pella 850 series aluminum clad windows. Staff inspected the window sashes that had been removed and the interior of the structure based upon that inspection staff determined that the windows were in good condition with some damaged buttons and chips in the paint of the sashes and that staff could not support replacing the windows based on the guidelines staff informed the applicant of the decision that the cannot support the window replacement and that the case would have to be heard by the board staff left the applicant an application which was submitted shortly after the site visit the case was scheduled to be heard in the august board meeting staff requested that the applicant delay the case until september uh till the september meeting due to a lack of quorum expected for this case the applicant sent an email requesting that the case be postponed until the September meeting. So this is the property in question. This photo is from the PVA prior to the window replacement. And the windows that we're discussing is this paired set of windows and then this single one. These are photos of the sash that had been already moved by the time staff made it to the property or went by the property. and you can see there is some minor damage to the windows where these muttons have been chipped off. This is a close-up of that. And this is a photo of a corner of the window showing that, you know, they're not separating, they're not obvious rotted areas. Another kind of close up of a little bit of the damage. And then some missing glazing compound. And these are photographs that were taken after the window replacement. Again, the paired set and then the single. guidelines are included for your use findings staff finds that the proposal to replace window replace the window and a pair of windows at the second floor level of the front elevation does not meet the guidelines. The design principle states windows should be maintained or repaired to match the original design. If windows are deteriorated beyond repair, the installation of new wood windows to match the original designs is recommended. Windows of baked or anodized aluminum clad may be considered only if the windows cannot be repaired. guideline 124 a states windows should be preserved and maintained in their original location size and design with their original materials and number of panes original framing of the open should be retained and maintained guideline 124 B builds on that philosophy which states windows should be repaired rather than replaced. If the review process determines that the replacement is necessary due to severe deterioration, the replacement should be in kind to match their originals in size, material, and design. The installation of new wood windows to match the original design is recommended. The installation of baked enamel or anodized aluminum clad windows not totally of aluminum construction may be considered if aluminum clad windows are applied they should match historic wood windows as closely as possible in their dimensions profile depth of muttons and surrounding trend vinyl or vinyl clad windows are not allowed as so often it occurs if staff had been able to inspect the windows prior to the removal and new windows having been ordered staff would have been able to make suggestions for the repair and not replacement and could have put the applicant in touch with the contractor that it could have provided the knowledge and ability to restore the windows recommendations staff recommends that the proposal be denied and the deadline for board action is today and that's the conclusion of the staff report the board has any questions so the question i have is that the windows that have now been installed from the photographs does it have a screen over in front of it is that what i'm seeing i believe so Okay. She's agreeing. And there are gone field, double paned windows. Are the muttons between the double panes? Is there a division in between? these windows out think i'm going to answer your question these windows in particular if the previous windows were in a severely deteriorated condition that the staff could support uh replacement would have would meet the guidelines okay i think that's what you're asking that yeah I just wanted to be sure from the photographs I couldn't tell what the muttons, the mullions, they had done. They are SDLs. Okay. So I have one question related to the trim, the frame and the trim. Was the full opening within the masonry opening, was all of that replaced? or just the sashes themselves? The sashes. Thank you. There's not any further questions. Ms. Mize could. Okay, thank you for having me. Can you all hear me? Is the microphone? Am I loud enough? Okay, and thank you, Amelia and Barry, for letting me come here, I assume I have a chance to convince you that what we've done is okay or I wouldn't be here. So that's what I'm going to try to do. Okay, before I do that, let me introduce myself again, who we are, and so you'll know we're not some people that just want to slam dunk and throw anything together and then get on with it. As I said, that's my husband. And I can't not read. Okay, read it for me, babe. If he's going to speak, can you please come to the mic? Stand up here with me. There's another one behind you, if you can see it more easily. Okay, okay, stay with me. Stay with me. We're both history majors, and we love history. We would never do anything to the house that wasn't historically correct and authentic. We're both docents at Ashland. If there's anything you want to know about Henry Clay, Neil will tell you all about it. We restored the third oldest house in Jefferson County. It was built in the 1700s, and we're in the process of restoring the one at 339 Transylvania Park. and I wrote a grant to get trees for the park. We've planted over 24, Neil keeps them watered. I say that to let you know how environmentally conscious we are. And we share the same vision as the Historic Preservation Office and the Board of Architectural Review, and I assume that vision is this. it's to restore historic homes to their original grandeur and keep those homes protected with the best materials possible. Is that accurate? Is that what you all see? And, oh, I forgot to tell you, on the left-hand side of the folder I gave you are all these slides. So if you need to do that. Here's the house again. And I've got the same before and after pictures, which you've seen those three windows on the second story is what we replaced. But I want to tell you something about we have been restoring this home from top to bottom. And we have worked with Amelia and done all the things right. I slipped up this time and did it wrong. But at any rate, we have replaced the roof. It could have been repaired. We did not repair it. We replaced it. We did not use asbest shingles, which was probably on the house when it was built. We have replaced the soffits and painted. That second story where you see those two windows, the people that lived in it before, somebody, instead of tuck-pointing it, put a big streak of what looked like rubber cement down the front of it. So I worked with Amelia and I said get me somebody who will do this right. I was very nervous about it. I even called her when the guy got there and asked her to come and supervise, which she did. You see the columns there, we replaced those. That used to be that horrible wrought iron, lacy looking stuff, which might look okay on a New Orleans house. It was hideous on this house. and we wanted to bring it back to its original. So we got these columns. Now, they're not the wood columns that would have been there when the house was built. They're wood with some mixture that will keep them from rotting. So they're the top-line material that is restoring this house to its original glory, but with the best materials. historic preservation guidelines and i emphasize the word guidelines thank goodness they're not laws they're not rules they're guidelines and when i asked amelia so after she came and inspected and sent me a note and told me uh uh sent me a form and told me to apply i did and when she turned me down i was really shocked because we met all the guidelines and the guy across the street replaced his Wanda and he didn't even have to come here and nobody inspected it. So, but he did send in a COA. Yes, he did send in a COA. So when I asked Amelia why am I coming here? She said because you didn't do a COA. The reason we didn't do a COA, and I don't think we did one for the roof, we didn't do one because the guidelines for architectural details says no approval is required when replacing materials and configuration to match the original. In other words, replacing like with like, which we did. So I didn't think I needed a COA. I was wrong and I humbly apologized. Okay. However, when Amelia examined the windows after they were removed, and I did invite her to come in, take pictures, do whatever she needed to do, which she did. But she didn't say at that point that I had to repair them. What she said is keep them because they're already out there on the ground. And I said, oh, what would I do with them? And she said, well, you could take them to Habitat for Humanity for Restore. Somebody might want them. I said, who in the world would want these windows? She said somebody might want them for a garden shed. Nobody's going to want them for a $500,000 house. So they're trashy. And you couldn't get them up and down. What happened there? Still going off. I'm pushing something wrong. Okay. Our new windows, like Barry told you, do meet historic preservation guidelines. The Rappella, top-of-the-line architecture series 850 wood windows are identical to the ones we removed, which you saw. And we meet the historical preservation guidelines if they say the windows need to be replaced. Pella's exclusive triple wood windows provide advanced protection against moisture, decay, stains from mold and mildew, as well as termite damage. Had I had my old trashy windows repaired, I wouldn't have any of that. These Argonne-filled windows improve energy efficiency and lower home energy costs, and they are recommended by Lexington Fayette County Government Environmental Commission. So you've got one department here saying get these kind of windows. These Pella windows are 79% more energy efficient, and they reduce noise by 52%. This is important in a neighborhood where you have college students partying every night. And they are shatterproof, important in a neighborhood that's prone to have burglaries. You wouldn't have any of that if you repaired the windows that I had. And each, by the way, each of these windows cost $2,000. They're custom made. When I talked to the person, end a minute, sweetheart. When I talked to the person who was selling me the windows, I said they must be identical. And they measured the mullions and made sure they were identical as you saw. What do you want to say, babe? The only thing I want to say is that the reason they're this cost is I got them at Lowe's and they designed, sent them to Pella. They gave me a 10% veterans discount. and there was a sale loan of five five percent so I got a 15 percent off this price so you can see these ones those are top of the line top of the line and I'm buying them on time because they gave me a credit card I'm gonna have to pay it off in two years so that's the reason they're even two thousand dollars each so we had the lady who came out was a historic she said these and she sat down and did this for us so we felt very secure in what we were doing. Okay now here's a picture of a window, I believe this is in the stairwell, just to give you an idea of what these windows look like up close. They were not functional even though the pictures they showed you didn't look as trashy as they were, they contain lead. And when they're repaired, they would not meet EPA's standards. KU guidelines and the Lexington Fayette County Government Environmental Commission guidelines. If I repair that window right there, which needs to be repaired bad, it wouldn't meet any of the guidelines except the historic commission's guidelines. And I can't lift it. I can't lift half the windows in the house. These are the first three we've had repair. I can't lift them. I have to get Neil to lift them. If he's not there, I can't do it. Now, sometimes instead of going to the gym, if I want to do reps to build my muscles, I can lift the one in the bedroom. Sometimes I do that. Okay, now I don't know if you can tell what this is. The one on my left is the windows raised. This is in the bathroom and you can see how rotten it is at the bottom. There's a big chunk of wood eaten out. Could this window be replaced and repaired? Yes. Is it worth restoring? No. It would cost me a ton of money and it wouldn't be worth anything after I got it done. See the picture on the right. We have storm windows, ugly storm windows, which I would never put on the front of my house. It's cold as it is to have that north wind blowing in those front windows. I would never put storm windows. We've got storm windows, and you can see the duct tape there. Neil goes around duct taping all the windows. Some of them he has duct taped shut. So it's amazing. I'm embarrassed to show you how bad the windows are in my house. And by the way, we're electric heat, and my bill in January, February is $500, and I'm throwing up CO2 like you've never seen in your life out of Dix River. I'd like to go to gas, but we're on a budget. I'm 78 years old. We're retired, and we're trying to put most of our resources into a property, and we're doing it on time. And at this moment, we have been there nine years and have over $160,000 in this home, including furnace. radon abatement system in the basement. I mean, most of these houses don't even have that and it has radon in the basement. Not very much. And we've done furnaces, kitchens, bathrooms, painting, and in no wire. We couldn't, you couldn't hardly get internet in here. So we had a seven, I think $7,000 just to get the thing wired for internet. So we're trying to bring this up, trying to shift what savings we have into a piece of property make it pristine and hope that by the time we have to go to the old folks home we can sell this and glide into oblivion and that's my story and i'm sticking to thank you and so when we were ready to buy this house neil had to talk me into it because it was so trashy looking i couldn't think about living there i took my two friends artist friends over i said here's the house we're going to buy they said you cannot live here so i said no neil likes that we're going to do it and we did it we love the house it's fabulous it's the best place in the world for us to live because we go to school and we can walk to school okay as i said these windows have lead in them i could not put them back if i wanted to we did not keep the old windows because the following epa regulations contractors cannot leave lead contaminated materials within the property for disposal the united states environmental protection agency allows contractors to dispose of residential lead-based paint waste such as doors windows and so on then they have a special place where they have to do it they had to wrap those windows not only did they wrap the windows after they took them out they wrapped not the whole room when they were in there working That's how dangerous these windows are. Then they put them in some kind of containment box because we asked them, well, can we give these to Habitat? And they said, nope, we've got to take these with us. They slid them in some kind of box and said, it's our responsibility from here on to do this. So in conclusion, I am asking, actually, I am begging you to please approve these Pella architecture. 850 wood windows which are approved by the Historical Preservation Office. They meet KU guidelines. They meet Lexington Fayette Urban County Government Environmental Commission standards, not guidelines, standards. They adhere to EPA guidelines, which I've said. And on a lighter note, I want to look at one of Kentucky's laws. It's not even a guideline. This is a law, ladies. This KRS 252, women are not allowed to purchase a hat without the authority of their husbands. Now, when you go to buy your hat for the Derby, I want you to be sure you ask your husbands because this law is still on the books. So I wonder if it might be time for us to update our own guidelines. And that's all, folks. Thank you very much. Appreciate your considerations. Thank you. Amelia? I just wanted to respond to a couple of things Ms. Mize has mentioned. Staff, I particularly, staff member, and there was no discussion about, staff is always, when we meet at windows on site or any project on site, we always want them to retain the windows in case they had to be put back. and that was the discussion that was had. I think there was a lot of discussion at the time. They were trying to clarify and reduce confusion, and things like mentioning going to Habitat was mentioned, but that was not. When I said that windows need to be retained on site, it's just in case they were put back. I would say that the windows, as they've been removed, the brick mold was left in place, but in the case in the inside, but the insides were removed. So these are actually not sash kits. They're actually window installations. So they go within that frame of that. I would say that. Holistically looking at Ms. Mize's windows, I would say a lot of them do need to be repaired, mostly a lot of on the outside versus the inside. And that's just looking at, we did a brief tour with Ms. Mize and hoping to meet with her later about how to go further with the whole discussion about restoration of windows of her whole house, not just these particular windows. And I would say just from the lead paint issue, what she's really talking about is the lead paint. And, of course, there's always ways to abate lead paint to reduce any kind of lead paint issues. and there are paints out there that do actually help that and can be applied to paint properly to do that. And that's also part of, if you read further, of any kind of health department guidelines about that and or the federal EPA standards, they do talk about when you have older windows and older historic districts, that that is a means to have that happen. So nobody's going to die from, at the moment, the lead paint in her house, as May mentioned. And I just wanted to clarify a couple of those things. Thank you. Thank you. I'll go ahead and ask if there's any comments from the audience. And I'll note that we do have four letters of support for this case. If you can see those letters on the right-hand side. You need please to step up to the mic so we get you on the record. Thank you. So those four letters, please read them. People took their time to write them. Two of them are from neighbors on either side of me. One is from a neighbor across the street. One's a neighbor up the street. They are passionate about that we should be able to keep those windows. and I wanted to say something else about that but I had forgotten what it was so. And would the board have any questions or comments? So just a few observations. I can sympathize with the owners having windows that are either in serious need of repair and both the work and the cost that's involved in badly deteriorating windows. The piece that I struggle with is that even if they were fully repaired and made completely operational, it still would not bring them up to an energy use that these windows allow in the replacement. And so the findings do talk about if they're not able to be repaired, but I would also submit that even with the extensive repair that would be needed, that they still would end up with a very inefficient window that probably has a 50 to 100 year life to it. Any other comments or questions from board members? I will just say that I sympathize with you too. I understand that you tried to do what was right for these windows and trying to find energy-efficient windows and match them. I think you misinterpreted the guidelines and really should have asked Amelia about these because I do think they were repairable, and now they're gone. So I think this is just a really sad case of somebody really trying to do the right thing, and now we've lost those windows. Ms. Irwin, do you have any comments? I would just say in response to the guidelines in general on windows such as this, that I feel like it doesn't address the ecological situation that we're in. and even though some of the comments talk about original in the guidelines elsewhere not stated in this case, it does talk about the combination of a storm window and an original window meeting, having a better energy efficiency rating. it seems difficult to match up the need to have buildings that are as energy efficient as possible and meeting these guidelines that don't, I know there's inherent energy savings of maintaining an existing element. But I have a little bit of a problem with these guidelines not addressing the output of energy that's required to when a window is not energy efficient. Thank you. In my review of this case, I think it really just boils down to a judgment call of whether these are irreparable or not. And it's awfully close, just in the story that I've heard. It's very complicated that the windows are gone at this point. But regarding the other comments that we've had so far, would there be an attempt to create a motion that could point to a guideline based on these comments? Mr. Chair, also the staff would note a couple of the guidelines that may have been not focused on perhaps by the property owners as much as would have been helpful. Okay. And they're in the start of the guidelines portion of this report. A, that the guidelines' first priority of the process for all historic buildings is that we protect and retain the historic materials. So it says the windows should be preserved and maintained in their original location, size, and design with their original materials and numbers of paints. That philosophy is what is one of the key factors of protecting these historic resources throughout our community and throughout communities across the country. It is a very standard expectation and charge for historic properties throughout our country and here in Lexington. So it's always a first and foremost protect and preserve the historic materials. These are first growth lumber. They have the ability to have a long lifespan. And so you'll notice in the second piece of that, B, notes that windows should be repaired rather than replaced. And so this is in a pecking order, obviously, of what is the best solution. And then it works through if that's not possible due to too much deterioration. then you go to the second stage, which is to replace similar design and so forth. And so I know you all are very used to that philosophy being a key aspect of everything we're charged with, but I'm not hearing too much that the property owners studied that part of the guidelines and the intent. The other thing about the environmental considerations relative to the energy numbers, our guidelines do address that relative to recommending the utilization of storms. Storms have changed tremendously in the industry and gotten much better, not only efficiency-wise but also visually. And there are some very excellent studies out and have been for several years, different ones, that demonstrate the ability to get good high numbers of efficiencies with that pairing of historic windows and a good storm. So I think it is not really correct to say that you cannot accomplish something in a similar manner. I'm not suggesting you can meet it identically to something that has the double pane with the argon. But given that our first charge is to protect the historic materials that make up our historic structures, one of the ways you do that and get efficiencies is to do pairings with old and new, keeping the old, utilizing the new in the storms. So obviously it's not correct to say the staff approved this outcome. The staff is saying that in light of the fact the windows have been removed and did not have the opportunity to evaluate the condition of the windows, but we can see they were in pretty sturdy shape. They might be aesthetically need some work made functional with carpentry work to do that, all the things that all you all on the board know. But with something already replacing it, we're saying that if indeed it had been within the guidelines because of too damaged windows, too much damage, that this solution is within the guidelines. But the problem is it's missed the first part, which is it's losing the historic fabric of the building. And therein lies the problem. And then I think it's important all the parties involved keep in mind there's an entire house of windows. And that obviously there needs to be some improvement made in working with some of those historic windows, but it can be done. The lead paint, there are many solutions to that. Amelia has addressed that already, and I will not take more time on that. But it is not a legitimate reason to throw away historic resources because they have lead paint. So this is not, obviously the decision the board is being asked to make today is specific to these three windows and the solution this owner has pursued. But I would note, and I know you all have already registered, that this is the beginning of what would be a methodology throughout this entire historic structure, if the owners continue in the manner in which they are. Thank you. If I haven't apologized enough, I apologize. I made a mistake. I'd like to be forgiven. I have worked with the historic board on many things which I told you I have. Yes, I'm guilty. I did not read all those guidelines. Betty, of course I didn't. If I had read all those guidelines I would have known better. I thought replacing like with like was okay. I did not ask permission to replace my roof and I I did not replace it with original materials. That would be insane. So I just want to leave it at that and press upon you. Those are guidelines. I've already made my mistake. I'm asking for forgiveness. In listening to your discussion about putting in the new storm windows, that type thing, I was a pretty strong man when I came along and I'm pretty good health now, but I'm telling you, these windows, you just pick them and you lift them and you got the screens. And I have, we have had our windows open in the spring, in the fall this year. And my electric bill is coming down just like this because I'm getting the ability to get breezes in there. And if I've got a storm window and I got it, I just can't handle all this stuff anymore. Okay, you just grab that little handle and you pull the window up and it's on there. It's cool. The wind is coming in. I don't have to turn the air conditioning on. And these, and I don't, you just don't get the efficiency you get in these argon-sepharic panes. That's the bottom line. And I'm telling you, my bill, my electric bill is just out of the, I'm ashamed of it. I got from KU this January. My bill was $500 and something. And they print on there. I hate to say this. I generated my house generated. I couldn't believe it. It said 6000 tons of CO2 out of Dix River. And we are the most polluting city in the country by population because we're total coal fired. And I'm going to try to get gas in there to help mitigate that if I can get the budget right. And as far as replacing windows, we really can't do much more to replace windows because it costs so much to put. Well, it just, and I'm not getting any younger, okay? So, I mean, I throw myself on the mercy of the court. And plus, if you deny this, who's going to pay me $6,000 so I can take these wonders and throw them in the garbage or wherever they go and go buy something else that's different? I mean, I have no recourse. I just throw myself on the mercy of the court. Thank you. Well, addressing Ms. Kerr's comments about preserving what existed, there still seems to be some confusion about the windows were still at your house for a while while you were going back and forth with Amelia, right? No, no, they took them. They said we were not for kids. What's, how did that, there's the confusion about take them to Goodwill or send them to the landfill. We had that discussion the day Amelia was there that they could be donated to Habitat. I said who would want them, what would they want them for, maybe a garden shed. All this happened the same day. The people who put the windows in said they were compelled by law to wrap them up and remove them. So they took them that day. Okay, I understand. And the two workmen were really good. One was from Belarus and one was from Lithuania. One of them had a PhD in chemistry. I couldn't believe it, but they're great workmen. They came to this country and they did a fabulous job, but they seemed to know what they were talking about. I'll make another comment regarding the rest of the windows in the house. What we will judge today are these three windows that we're talking about. It would not be a precedent to address any other windows on this house or anybody else's house. We're judging these three with these conditions under these circumstances. That's it. I remember what I wanted to say now. We have many realtors. You know, we live in the historic district around 3rd Street, 2nd Street. I've been told that there are realtors that own historic properties there, and if they want to change their windows, they do it on Saturday or Sunday so nobody can catch them, and they put in windows that are not approved in any way. So here are people all over the city getting by with this stuff, and here we could be in the position of being punished for trying to do the right thing, and in fact doing the right thing, except we didn't read the guidelines and we didn't follow them as we should have. Thank you. Well, staff would just note that anybody who does start work without a permit, usually the neighbors let it be known that work's going on and the staff gets there very quickly. But everybody is brought into the process that we learn of. And I don't believe it is correct that there are people, many people, if any people, out there who, even if they have started work in violation, have not been asked and participated in coming through the process, just like you all are doing today, having started work without a permit and needing to come in to get this straightened out. So it's kind of an urban myth about the, oh, everybody's done all this work on the weekends and there's a lot of work out there that has not been reviewed and had solution under the auspices of this process. That is truly not correct. Were there any other comments in the audience? Perhaps it was only someone stretching. Any other questions from the board? I have a question. I mean, I think that they have not met the guidelines. The windows should have been looked at and repaired in place. How do we make a statement that this isn't setting a precedent for future windows in their neighborhood, on their house, in the district, if we were to make an exception for these windows? which again I think you know they were trying to do the right thing but it was it wasn't and we don't I think the energy efficiency has been addressed I think the lead paint has been addressed and I think those windows should have been retained I don't think we can get windows back that are better than what they've put on the house right now so how do we say that this isn't a precedent-sending moment to allow these windows to remain I think under those conditions, yeah, we'd be in. Tracy, do you have any comments? My comments were if it were determined that they were irreparable. If they were irreparable, they'd put the right windows on. If they had been irreparable and the staff had been in a position to evaluate them and that was the case, then they would have received a permit from the staff to do the next best thing in accordance with the guidelines, which would have been to then put in a new window of similar design, scale, all the things we're talking about, which is what they've done, is put in a new window of similar scale. But the problem is they threw away what was meant to be protected and retained. So the catch, of course, is the staff, the photographs we have seen, it is very difficult for the staff to come to any conclusion other than that those windows were largely in sound condition, needed to be reworked to be operable, needed to be some repairs. But that is done in house after house after house in our historic districts here in Lexington and throughout this nation. In regard to your question about a precedent, I think if you are so inclined to make an exception in this instance, I think you're going to have to pretty clearly state in your findings the reason why, which may be what you just stated about, that you can't now put back something better than was already there since the windows are gone. Yeah, they are now irreplaceable. They are now unrepairable. But I think you're going to have to be very careful in any alternate findings that you make to set forth that this is, you know, a single instance for these reasons and it's not meant to apply in any future argument. Now, whether or not somebody tries to do that once you take that action, I can't say we wouldn't necessarily be able to prevent them from making that argument if they so choose to do that. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, I'm going to try to make a motion. On case number 191-30339-G at 339 Transylvania Park, I move that we approve the certificate of appropriateness on the windows, given that it is now impossible to repair the windows since they no longer exist but that all future windows need to be repaired and follow the first guideline to try to preserve and maintain and repair the existing materials. I might suggest that this is also in the case that a proper resolution to the problem would be to use the same window they have of its highest grade replacement. I'm needing clarification. On other windows in this house? No, not on the other windows, but on the three that have been replaced. it's also in the case that they have used appropriate windows to replace them. They're not using vinyl windows or anything inappropriate. You might want to just, if I might suggest, phrase that a little differently so that it's a little more clear that in this instance, the materials and design that they have utilized comes very close to matching or being similar to what was there and is the sort of, this isn't the right word, but I was going to say the next best solution in terms of the fact that the historic windows have been lost, lost being removed and thrown away. And the new windows meet the guidelines. They meet all other guidelines other than A. If this house, let me sidebar and then you all can word it, of course, as you would need to do to be what you want it to be. If this house had had three different window sets over the last 100 years and had 1980s vinyl windows that were put in before the historic district and those had failed. They would have gotten been able to get a staff permit but to remove those 1980s vinyl windows that had failed and put in windows more appropriate for the house and more physically legitimate and a material within the guidelines. These windows could meet that because they would be, by definition, in accordance with the guidelines for new replacement windows. I know you understand fully the issue is that the loss doesn't allow us to say and therefore these meet the guidelines because half of the formula doesn't meet the guidelines so if you could please wordsmith it to make those two distinctions that the key aspect of this that resulted in the loss doesn't meet the guidelines. However, a solution has to be found because it obviously has to have windows, and that's where you're headed is addressing this solution. Does that help you? Okay, so can I just restate my motion or make a second motion or withdraw the first motion? How do I do that? Tracy, I'm going to suggest that withdrawing your motion might be the healthiest. Okay, so I withdraw the first motion. Withdraw. I'm going to try a second motion. In this case, given that the windows that were put in place do meet the requirements and the desire to be of very high quality and match as closely as possible in dimension profile depth of the muttons and the surrounding trim and the mullions that even though the first guideline was not met, that the windows, the original windows, were determined that they could have been repaired rather than replaced due to the judgment that there was not severe enough deterioration. I move that and that it is impossible now to preserve or maintain or repair those windows because they are no longer in existence, I move that we approve the COA for this one instance. As it exists. As it exists. Is there a second? Second. All right. All those in favor of the motion say aye. May I ask a question? Actually, let's go ahead with the motion. I'm sorry. Okay. We have a second. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. All those opposed say nay. Nay. The application is approved as it exists. Thank you. Thank you all for your time and consideration. We truly, truly appreciate it. And we will in our next meeting in our community, tell people about the window situation so that they will not have to go through this. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you very much. I appreciate it. It's really kind of worried me because I didn't know how you guys ruled against me. I don't sound too poor, but I'm getting home and getting out. And if you will, please remember to email your projection materials for the record. Thank you. Here's this one if you want it. Hello, Jim. Hello. You have been at this for an hour. Do you all need a break or do we continue forth? Okay. All right. i believe it's been postponed all right we are at 650 kden lane is that correct okay i've got on the application 20 i believe this is 650 kden lane is that correct yep all right Is the applicant here? Good afternoon. My name is Leon Slatter. I'm pastor of Caden Town Missionary Baptist Church. Good afternoon. 2950 Caden Town. I believe the staff has recommended approval of your application subject to what we call our standard conditions. I'm going to read those to you and see if you're in agreement. They are as follows. if any changes are made that alternate information submitted resubmit the changes the staff for review and approval prior to the start of the work and once reviewed by the other divisions any changes shall be returned to staff or board for review and approval prior to start of work are any agreement with those conditions yes sir okay i failed to note the application is for the demolition of a rear addition that has been found to be non-conforming so do i have Is that right? Am I on the wrong one? Demolish pre-addition, right? Okay. All right, folks. It should be the whole structure. Demolition of the whole structure. All right, that's not what you said. Okay, I'm sorry. Let me read it. The applicant is requesting a certificate of appropriateness to demolish a one-story frame residential structure. That's the scope of work. All right. Any discussion concerning this application? Anything from the audience? If not, then are we ready for a motion? Chair, per case 02960650 at 650 Caden Lane, I move that we approve the certificate for appropriateness with the standard two conditions. Second. Did you ask for anybody here in the audience? I did. I'm sorry. I have a motion. Do I have a second? I have it verbalized, please. Second, yeah. All right, thank you, sir. Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, the chair will call the question. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. The motion passes and the COA as conditioned is approved. Thank you, sir. Thank you all so much. All right. Thank you. Going to our next application at 435 North Limestone in the Mulberry Hill Historic District. Scope of work here, and that's why we had a typo issue. This is a demolished rear addition. That's correct. All right. And please state your name for the record. My name is John Paul Edwin Stills. All right. And? I'm his mom. All right. Okay. And thank you for your patience. I know we had a long discussion, but that sometimes happens. The staff has recommended approval of your COA with what we call our standard conditions, and I think I just read them to you all. Are you in agreement with those conditions? Yes, sir. All right. Any questions or comments about this application? Do I have any questions or comments from what's left of my audience? Hearing none, then, I think we're ready for a motion. I actually did have a question. I just wanted to make sure I understood which part of this porch was being removed, because it looks like there's kind of two additions. And from this, it seems like it's only the kind of the rectangular part on the side. That's correct. If you view the house from the back, it's the second-story porch, so not the two-story that wraps around the lateral side of the building, just the two-story. Sorry. Just the two-story portion, the single-story portion that's on the second floor remains. Exactly. That's what I thought. Okay, thank you. All right. With that clarification, are we ready for a motion? Mr. Chair, regarding case number 11660435-F at 435 North Limestone, I move to approve the application for a certificate of appropriateness with our two standard conditions. All right, do I have a second? Second. Any further discussion on the motion? Hearing none, the chair will call the question. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Aye. Opposed nay. The motion passes and the CLA as condition is approved. Thank you very much. Good luck with your project. Thank you. Thanks so much and I just want to say, Winn Meeker, my very, very good friend. This is the first time I've been down here but I feel like I know everything and how much she loves Amelia and all. Thank you all. Thank you, ma'am. She would be very grateful for that nice comment. Thank you. I am going to skip past 293 South Ashland. We have another one that can be called routine approval, and then we'll come to 293. Turning now to 816 through 820 West High Street. Scope of work is construct screen porch, deck, and landscaping. Is the applicant here? Here. Ronald Wood. Mr. Wood, how are you today? I'm doing good, you are. I will note that you had a very nice and very complimentary letter in support of your project. Yeah. I don't know if I can find the name. Mr. Breeding. Is that right? Yes, from Michael Breeding. I believe a neighbor of yours. The application has been approved with the conditions, what we've been calling our standard two conditions. Are you in favor of that? Do you agree with those conditions? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Any questions or comments about the application? Hearing none. Anything from the audience? Hearing none. The chair is ready for a motion. Chair, per case number 09300816-D at 816 to 820 West High Street. I move that we approve the certificate of appropriateness with the standard two conditions as listed. All right. Do I have a second? Second. All right. Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, the chair will call the question. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. The motion passes and the COA as conditioned is approved. Thank you, Mr. Wood. Can I say something real quick? Sure. Go ahead. Someone such as myself who has ignorance of the law, who does things and didn't know what they were doing, and you get a phone call that says, you've done some things and we need to work on it. You know, it scares the heck out of you. And I'm like, but then when you have someone that comes to your house that sits down with you on your porch and shows you through the process about not what you've done wrong, but how to correct it. That was so graceful of Amelia Armstrong because it could have been handled so much differently and people could have taken it the wrong way. But to lead you by the hand through the whole process and let you know that everything's okay, I'm telling you, you can sleep at night. And I really appreciate that. And I'm so respectful of everybody's position. You know, we've got to do what we've got to do. And for someone to help lead you through that when you just don't know, it's like, oh, God, I've screwed up. What am I going to do? How am I going to fix this? I can't afford it. I shouldn't afford it. You know it's okay. So I'm really grateful to you all. Thank you so much. Thank you. And we appreciate the comments. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right, turning now to 293 South Ashland Avenue in the South Ashland Central Avenue Historic District. Scope of work is install a front yard fence. Is the applicant here? Obviously. Come on up, please. If you'll state your name for the record, please. My name is Zach Ramsey. I'm Nellie. Nellie Ramsey, is that right? Yeah, we're the owners of the home. The staff has recommended disapproval of your application, so I'm assuming you would like to be heard on this. Pardon me, I didn't hear you. The staff has recommended disapproval of your application? Yes. And I'm assuming that you'd like to have a hearing on that disapproval? Yes. Our procedure is the staff will make a presentation first, then you can make your comments, and then after all the comments are made, the board members may have questions either of Ms. Armstrong or of you. All right? And I'll put my mask back on. Thank you. And let the record. The record needs to reflect that we have just been handed a revised proposed fence location. Has that changed how the staff is reviewing this issue? No, it's a clarification of a back and forth between the property owners and myself. Okay, and I do want to be clear on one thing before you start. There's a 20-foot setback from the sidewalk. Is that? Well, that's one thing we'll discuss. Amelia's got the skinny on that. Okay, all right. I'll let her explain it while she does her presentation. So the owners, of course, this is actually from the real estate photograph. So you can see that this has got two front yards. As you can see, this is High Street. And then this is the South Ashland side. And so given the fact that the streets are deemed minor arterials, which give them particular setbacks that you can have fences, and so per building inspection discussion, they're permitted to have a fence within three feet of the sidewalk along High Street, but then the discussion was that it needed to be ten feet back from the side of the curb, from, sorry, the sidewalk. Technically speaking, typically fences need to be 20 feet back from the back edge of the curving. In this particular case, that's actually, the particular location that they're looking at is more than 20 feet. And we'll look here in a second. I'll give you a better explanation about that. So is it because of the amount of traffic that's on these streets? It's right. So each street is deemed either a minor, major road to be like Richmond Road. This is deemed a minor street. Your street is a collector street. Then there's local streets. All the streets are, because of their usage and traffic, are deemed particular ways. and that actually dictates the ordinance of the type of fencing you can put in the front yard. Any fencing needs to be four feet in height, but sometimes it talks about the setback, and that's just for site distance issues as you pull out of your, you know, as you back out, or at this particular corner, as you note, the plan here is canted, So that way, and that's a discussion that happened also with a building inspection and with the Ramseys as far as canting that. So then you have a site distance issue that's not going to be obscured by fencing at that corner. And we'll look here in a second about, give you an overall view of the mapping of that. That sort of talks about when you pull up to South Ashland, that stop sign, you can see the high street traffic. better. So, and this is sort of more of a secure, but this is actually looking at that corner that we're talking about. Of course, this is a very busy intersection of South Ashland and High Street coming together. And this gives you sort of a viewshed of looking as you come along Ashland Avenue up to that particular corner. And this particular tree, which is in their front yard, the fence will be set back behind this tree and not go all the way to the neighboring shrubs but sort of stop short to allow access along that to go to the backyard. Amelia, can I pause you one quick second to tell the Ramses that if you want to get up and turn around so that you can see. Thank you. It is, but what you're not getting is where she's using the red light to show the elements. Right, right there at that fence. Thank you, Ms. Kerr. See what I was referring to right here? That tree we were discussing? And then, of course, this is, again, just sort of a setback of this is actually South Ashland proper to sort of show the front yards of the structure, of all the structures on South Ashland. And so this was the first initial plan that the Ramseys had submitted per our discussion about the setbacks with building inspection. So I think the particular things I want to note on this is the fact that they are bringing this, this would be the shrub line, and they're not going to bring that fence all the way there so people can access the HVAC units on the side of the house. The fence will go across and the tree will be over at this location. And then it will end right at the end of that where the porch is. And so this is also that same site plan that was submitted to you all sort of showing you a little bit what they were talking about with not coming to sort of the corner of that house at the corner of their house here coming around the front the trees in this location there's another tree here and then it comes you know come to seeing the whole port system for their dogs to be able to be let out. And this is that camp we're talking about with High Street and South Ashland. So guidelines are clear for reference and my glasses are fogging up so sorry about this. I'm also going to go through a couple more images. These are the images submitted by the applicants. This is sort of, they do have a very small backyard if you can note here this is their property this is their backyard and this is their side yard in their front yard and this is their garage so this is that location behind the house and sort of this gives them they sort of marked up their plans to show where they like the fence and you can see their yellow line here and then this comes across you can see the cant so here's that tree that we're talking about we saw earlier we've seen earlier with the cant in this other tree and then along this line back to the edge of the house here this is the high street side High Street you can see the cant and this is on the opposite corner of on South Ashland here and this is the hedgerow with the fence terminating on that northeast corner this is a sample of the type fence they would like to put in it's a wood picket fence and here's another sample example of it you have also the specifications in your packet and i'm going to go back up sorry can we go back to one of my slides please to the map up. The second, let's see. Yeah. I'll get it right there. Thank you. Staten finds a proposal to construct a front yard fence at this circa 1905 colonial revival Queen Anne style structure to be inappropriate and not in accordance with the guidelines. South Ashland Avenue and Ashland Park were developed with open yards and no fencing. guidelines for sites at states that site setting contributed to the character of historic properties and help to define properties historic character and appearance guidelines 3.6.E. and AFC open space should be developed and scale character with the neighborhood or designated historic landmark and the vistas and approaches should be preserved and maintained pattern development that creates the historic character of South Ashland in our large front yards with open landscaping and walkways and driveways leading to the individual residents with no front yard boundary definers. The allowance of fence at this corner would set a precedent and create a false sense of history. Guidelines 3.6.F. state landscape and land features, land formations, view sheds, and archaeological vistas and approaches should be retained and maintained, and landscape elements and side elements should not be visually intrusive or suggest a false sense of history. As proposed, the open land feature of the site would be altered and a new site element introduced that would be visually intrusive and suggest a false sense of history. South Ashland Avenue and Ashland Park were developed with open spaces with no front yard fences or gates. It should remain open. In recommendation, staff recommends disapproval as submitted. And, of course, the applicants are present. All right. I'll note there's also a letter of objection from Josh Marilla. Is that right? And I'm not sure in what capacity he was speaking. He's got president under his name. Is that of the firm or is he a resident in the area? Just a resident? He's a neighbor. All right. He has filed an objection to the application. Were there any questions of Ms. Armstrong before we start with the applicant? I did have a question. In the description of the background, it says a four-foot high wood picket fence. That's correct. In the written application, it says a three-foot high. Can I confirm? They are allowed a four-foot high fence. So I just put that in because I guess the undulation of turf that might on the outside, sometimes on the outside of fences might appear larger than the inside of a yard. If you have some greens, you know, any kind of movement in the yard or in hills or anything. But which are they asking for? I think they're asking for. Construction-wise, a four-foot fence or a three-foot fence? A three-foot fence. let them come to the mic all right all right mr ramsey or mr ramsey which one or both to clarify that point what we pull that mic up all right if you all can't hear me it's please let me know i'll speak up um what we're proposing is uh it's obviously not going to be higher than four feet that is the design guideline specification nowhere on that fence will be taller than four feet. In the front, the South Ashland side, the High Street side will be four feet. The South Ashland side will taper down to about 40 inches closer to three feet. We want it to be lower in the front for the aesthetic. And then it'll continue to be four feet on the side she shows you that runs along by the vegetation by our neighbor's side. That's why that second picture of the example fence had a step down. Because when we met with Amelia, we we hadn't decided or worked it out but it would be between 36 and 40. You get right in front of the house. So you know in our view the the specifications you know meet all the requirements in the design guidelines that state they're not supposed to be taller than four feet it's a wood picket fence it's actually a very close reproduction of the photo that's in your design guidelines that says an appropriate picket fence sorry let me get my glasses back on this mask and my glasses fogging it you know appropriate picket fence design you know it's similar to that you know in the guidelines that we are going from that have the specific criteria about fences which is section 3 guidelines for site and setting subsection 1 fences you know states pretty clearly that fences of of wood pickets are appropriate for front yards. It's not generally appropriate, conditionally appropriate, may be appropriate. It says fences of wood pickets are appropriate for front yards in any historic district in Lexington. Wood fences and front yards shall be no taller than four feet. Ours isn't. Have pickets no wider than four inches. Ours won't. And set no farther apart than three inches. Again, ours won't. That is the extent of all specific criteria that exists in the entirety of this this document as it relates to fences or relates to anything you know connected to a fence so that's that's the specification that we submitted if it's somehow not in line with the criteria here we would happily modify it but everything we read relative defenses is that it states here in the design principle that introductory language wood fences are allowed however it's important to keep the fence as transparent as possible so as not to obscure the view of the historic building i think you've seen from the photos we're keeping it i think there's a reason that when you all wrote these guidelines and you said don't make them any higher than four feet you don't want to obscure the buildings you want the slats to be a certain distance apart as not to obscure so you know we're following those guidelines that by my reading of the entirety of this document apply equally to all the homes in an h1 historic district one thing that was very confusing to me and you'll have to apologize i'll apologize i'm a lawyer so i read rules a certain way is that in the following subsection you know one is fences two is walls they cross-reference each other because a wall can be a fence you go down to subsection six and and it's called landscape, land features, land formations, view sheds, and archaeology. And that section seems to be the basis for Amelia's report that our fence will be visually dominant or suggest a false sense of history. Well, first of all, that subsection six, by its definition, by the examples, by the fact that it is four sections down in a later part of the document and doesn't reference or infer fences in any way, I'm struggling to understand why as the homeowner who reviewed these documents and relied on them to plan to possibly put in a front yard picket fence, why we would be held to standards that don't apply to fences. You can't go through a document and pick other language and say, well, you got to follow this and you got to follow that. You know, the fence that we've proposed meets all the criteria for front yard fences. And it would be nonsensical to say in section one that pertains to fences that as long as it's a picket and it's wood and it's of the right materials and it's no higher than four feet that's appropriate but then the pick the same picket fence is then visually dominant intrusive or suggests a false sense of history well that means no front yard picket fence could ever be appropriate in any home because they can't they totally cancel each other out and then there's also language in the report about how south ashland i'm assuming the street even though we're part of the south ashland central alvaro historic district and then ashland park particularly which is the adjacent historic district you know we're developed with open spaces and and other language i don't i don't see where that's documented anywhere as a particular standard that we are bound to i don't doubt that but i don't think that would be different for any other neighborhood and you know we walk around these neighborhoods a lot there are front yard fences uh decorative picket like metal front fences in ashland park there's one at 1010 finn castle at the corner like we are at a corner of finn castle in desha that i think it's around the whole house it's beautiful and the last time i checked ashland park is beautiful and alive and well um and then you know even on our street you know the regular park proper as they call it you know we're we're the transitional home to another neighborhood because we sit right behind ailsford and all the uk influence rental property that sits behind us where we kind of live in both worlds but south ashland proper has you know a couple of homes beautiful homes that have very significant hedges and landscaping that come all the way out to the sidewalk and grow over into the sidewalk a little bit so you know we see those stuff every day and we think well if a technically appropriate wood picket fence that this board has said this is appropriate is visually intrusive then how can can you have a four or five foot high shrub that's all the way to the sidewalk that doesn't create an open space and is more visually intrusive and would seem to come under this section six on landscaping because it clearly is it's a shrub how is that appropriate as as not being visually intrusive or suggesting a false sense of history if this picket fence which you've seen from the photos is going to come in there whatever the required you know moving the fence in the three feet on the high high street side it'll probably come in a little bit more than that because we've got trees along there and we want to protect the root we don't want to kill the trees we're you know we're we're going to landscape around it we want it to go away and and to put the technical stuff aside and we just bought the house in december this is our third coa application the other two were staff approved we're doing work on the house trying to fix it up in improvement as you can see from that map um even can i say something too while that maps up i just want to point out our yard is that first black dot and that thing behind it that's our garage that's where our lot ends see and that it's the line that clear place in between it is that patio you saw which usually looks better it was filthy though yeah but i just want to point out while that's still up that the situation we're in is much different from pretty much every other home on our street and the reason we're asking for it is because we have no safe green space at our home none we do have a dog and she's a really good dog and if anybody's on south ashland they've seen us out there playing with her and i would love for her to have green space we have kids we have friends with young children it's not safe to be there i told him i wouldn't talk because he's a brain well and that's you know that's that's part of the reason you know why we're doing we want to do it in a in an aesthetic appropriate way but it's part of the reason because if you look at the map of our historic district since we are being compared to the other homes on south ashland You see the house next to it, that shotgun backyard that goes all the way back that rectum. That's every other, that's every single other home that fronts South Ashland. We are the only remaining single-family residential home, certainly that sits at a corner like that. I've looked at all the other maps in Lexington. We might be unique across the city, but we're definitely unique within our district. Every other corner is a rental or it's already fenced or it's commercial and it's not even part of it. uh the home at the other corner isn't single family anymore and that's you know that's as nelly pointed out that little building is the outbuilding and then just on the other side of that is a home that was built that might have been part of the backyard years ago but that's where ailsford the elsewhere district starts in that front east high street so we have we have no backyard like every other resident of south ashley has to secure that appropriately our only option if there is to be an option, if there ever will in the history of time be an option for this home, for us or any future homeowner to secure any space for children, for dogs, would be to do that. I mean, this house, as we've learned, has had an interesting history over the last 25 years. It's changed hands a lot. The family that sold it to us looked us right in the eye. They have three children under the age of five. We love this home. We love the neighborhood. we have friends but our kids are up on two feet now and toddlers running around we can't we got to go find another home um you know the house has been rented before it obviously uk has encroached right up to our back doorstep but we love the place and we're trying to make it safe and secure not just for our family but we we're in our 50s and we're not going to live there forever so we know we're going to have to sell the house someday and we want to make it so you know a family or somebody would want to buy the home. It's not an empty nester home. So if you take families out of the equation and, and people downsizing out of the equation, you know, it's kind of, this is just my personal opinion. It's kind of dooming the property to just that uncertain history. Is it going to become UK rental? Is it, is it part of South Ashland? You know, what's it want to be? What's it going to be? So the picket fence was, was our way of addressing it both for ourselves and trying to you know make it sustainable uh as a single family residence as something attractive on the street which i think you know a lot of people in south ashland you know would generally want uh in spite of any objections so okay just to give us the background but back to my main point of the technical specifications you know i don't read anywhere in this document where what we're proposing based on anything that's been memorialized as a guideline that that that influences this board that we are not in compliance with and if we are we're happy to discuss any modifications or anything of the sort so okay let's see whether the staff the board members have any questions of you or thoughts or suggestions uh starting off with uh i don't have any questions of the applicant okay uh any of uh ms armstrong or but let's we'll go through with them um miss erwin yeah all right uh no i don't i don't have any specific questions really i'm still thinking about this though okay uh sarah i do have a question that's probably for amelia um how would this application be different if they had proposed some landscaping because i did drive down ashland avenue um this afternoon on my way to work and i i did think that um there were some hedge rows and things and property definition and boundary front yard boundary definitions that were there in the landscaping but were not fencing so i mean i think he was starting to get to that with you know why are those allowed but the fence isn't allowed so if you could kind of clear that up in the guidelines for me i'd appreciate it um and i think the biggest thing is the fact that obviously if you grow shrubs you don't necessarily need to always get a building or like our permit i'm sorry you're a little any kind of landscape bigger landscape projects you know or any shrubs you put in your yard unless it's like a big landscaping project you don't of course there's some sizable shrubs and just down the street from him but you technically don't need a certificate appropriateness to put shrubs in in your yard now if it was a utility strip it'd be sort of different because there's some codes to deal with that for site distance issues. But I think what we were talking about is sort of your man-made construction of a fence. But landscaping can die, and it can be removed. So if they were trying to define that yard and the area they're looking at fencing with a more landscaped version of that, they would need a certificate of occupancy, and that would be... Yeah, they wouldn't need a certificate of appropriateness to put in a shrub in the same location. Thank you. And I'll follow up on that thought. I was having the same thought. I walked by your house quite a bit. I loved how the house was restored. It was a mess. It's been more restored. We've put $40,000 in it in the past 10 months. On Transylvania Park and other streets, there are taxes bushes that form a buffer and protect the front yard from pedestrians and whatever that have worked out very effectively. You may want to drive down Transy and see many of the front borders. Have you explored at all the possibility of instead of having a fence, putting in some kind of a fencing hedgerow that would give you that buffer that you want from people walking through your yard and give some protection to children as well? Well, what we were going to ask if you all would consider one of our options was if we could pick it from the side and up, from the sides of the house and up, and then step down and then put a landscaping, a live fence across the front. The high street side. I don't know if I can do it. Do you have that pointer? sketch it so if we came here sorry i'm shaking if we were here and here with the fence and did a step down of like three feet and then went here here and straight up and set down and then did the live fence through here. So the front of the house has really essentially no fencing. So you're saying live fence meaning hedges? Yeah. Okay. I've seen fence. I've also seen, I walk all the time. I've got pictures on my phone, but I don't have it prepared to show you all. But I've seen, like Doc said, there's a house at Deshaies and Fencastle. It's in South Ashland Park. That's completely fenced all the way around the house, all the way around a four foot fence. I've seen other fences on, um, South Hanover, other yards that have corner definitions. And then they have small definitions at the sidewalk and then they put live. I call it a live, a living fence in between. all right so if the board would consider something like that that would probably be great it's a big yard to put a lot a living fence in and have it work before a 10 year span yeah we it's it's a different proposition because we we'd be talking about bringing in fairly significant plants we're not gonna enjoy the benefit our dog will be you know dogs live for 10 years it's going to take a while for something this big to become the things that have clearly were planted a long time ago some of these other properties you know you'd be amazed how quickly texas bushes will grow but still i see your point yeah but we're not opposed to having some kind of mixture even though we would prefer because we would landscape around that fence also to make it as possible it's not just going to be a plain fence in every spot there's going to be vegetation around Yeah, I do feel like it's a little bit of a, a little bit of a, I think it's unfair to say that our fence is going to be visually obtrusive when, like we've said, the stuff we've seen, it's much more visually intrusive. There are shrubs that are six and seven feet deep and this high. Well, let's see what the board members think. Let's get some comments because I'm not sure. I can't read how, where we are on this. So I'm going to go in reverse order. Let's start with Sarah. In terms of just talking about generally, do we want to approve this application or actually approve the disapproval? So I think a picket fence would be very visually obtrusive. I think you bought a house with a beautiful big front yard, knowing that it didn't have a backyard. And I think defining that front yard with landscaping would be much more appropriate than fencing it. I think there's some fences down the street on High Street. So the fact that this is on the corner kind of gives it a little more wiggle room, in my judgment, compared to the way Ashland Avenue is set up. But I would say it faces Ashland, not High Street. That's true. The front door does. Its longest exposure is along High Street, though. We technically have two front yards. The reality, and this is just my editorialization, we get put into both worlds depending on what is suitable for the process that we're in. So this process, we are, it's all South Ashland, but next time we do something, we'll be High Street. Us attorneys can find any way to make an argument. Ms. Irwin? My thought on this is that this property is as a corner lot, and I know those two roads are supposed to be minor roads, but they are really busy. And that lot, being a corner lot up against those two roads, functions and feels completely different than the rest of South Ashland. And I think that I feel that some accommodation can be made with the fact that this lot is so different than the other lots. And I think when you look at urban design issues, that corner lots are often treated very differently. than the rest of the lots on the street. And I don't think that because of that, because it is such a different lot and feels so different and functions so differently, that I do not think that the historic character of South Ashland, I don't think a picket fence would be detrimental. The low picket fence that they're proposing. Okay, Ms. Hill? I agree with many of the things that are being stated, and I do feel that the corner nature of the lot makes it just a unique character of its own that pulls it outside a little bit of the kind of standard character that continues along Ashland Avenue itself. My question is actually to Amelia, and this may just be language that I'm asking about, but as an attorney, language counts. So in your findings, you note, as proposed, the open land feature, and then you continue with this. Is there a proposal that could be resubmitted, redefined, that you would be more comfortable with? I think, well, the way our guidelines are set up sometimes is you have to pull into, to speak to Mr. Ramsey's discussion earlier. Sometimes, especially in setting, a lot of times, guidelines have to be brought together to sort of make a point. And I think when we were looking at fences, obviously, you know, it's sort of they're geared more to the type of fence. But I think when we're looking at landscape land features and land, you know, and view sheds, that's where we were looking at the open space of that's the character of Ashland Park. And so I'm trying to figure out where you said the which paragraph were you referring to? third paragraph under yeah with the open land features would be all so the discussion is the fact that Ashton Park is a very open area even if it does have shrubs that could die you know because that's what we feel sometimes landscaping could do um that's the discussion is the fact that the fence would sort of make that have boundaries and we do we have actually um did approve this body did approve the corner boundaries at South Hanover, but it wasn't a continuous fence. It was actually just those corners and there the applicants were wanting to stop people from sort of walking through the yard and felt that that was just enough to do that. So you know, this is a lot of people that live on. They put things on porch. They put dog waste in our garbage cans. They think it's a rental because everything else at the corner except ours is a rental. She confronted a middle-aged woman who lives in our neighborhood a couple weeks ago. We were standing on our back patio. She walked right up, put dog waste in the garbage. She very nicely said, ma'am, that's our garbage disposal. Could you not do that? We don't put our dog waste in there. And she turned around and she wasn't like some drunken UK kid wandering around. She lived in our neighborhood and she looked at her and said, well, where am I supposed to put it? Those are her exact words. God is my witness. She said, where am I supposed to put it? Now, my wife was nice enough not to say what you might think she would say. She said, you should take it home. But that's just an anecdotal example of kind of what goes on. Because I think people, there's a lot of vehicle traffic there, but there's an insane amount of pedestrian traffic. It's the University of Kentucky is right there. And that's fine. We love it. We love all that. We're not here to complain about something we didn't have any. I grew up in Lexington. My dad was the Chevy Chase mailman. This is my backyard. I get it. But that's just going to grow and grow, to your old's point. UK is just going to get bigger. They'll buy it all. More and more people are going to walk up and down there. You have to really sit there one day. I work at home, and my office space is right at that corner. I just watch people. I see people walk by all day, and I'll sometimes tap on one. They're just dogs, bicycles, just going through the middle of the yard like, hello. So that's kind of what we started to react to. Like, hey, I expect a little encroachment. We live at a very busy corner. I accept it. But just literally walking right up to our porch and throwing stuff on there like this is an abandoned rental home or something. Really, that little bit took us by surprise. Like, okay, we need to define an appropriate boundary if this is a single-family home. And I think we wanted to stay a single-family home. Let me go ahead and offer some comments then. Now that I've got sort of where I think the board, I think the board is trying to figure out a way to get into an agreement with you that you need some kind of a boundary. When I walk that street, especially when I'm walking down high, ready to turn on the Ashland, that is the side of the street that to me, you know, people would just be tempted to walk through and cut through your front yard. I'm wondering if we could treat this today as being basically a conceptual review. I think too much fence, perimetering the whole front yard with a fence is probably going to be overwhelming. But if you could come up with an idea, as you have suggested, ma'am, of doing a combination of fencing and live fencing, that that might be a good solution. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to continue this case to the next meeting. in the meantime submit new drawings and perhaps i mean i'm no architect i try to do it i know well you you have a great architect with the fence company they can do this stuff for you that's what they do we can we can do that and in fact when i look at which at that right down because amelia sent that to us a couple hours before this meeting i hadn't seen that that's That's not what we have in mind. That to me eats up too much of our yard. Our high street side has a lot of old trees and we can do what you want. We'll tighten it up and extend it. We can come in more. That's a 2D representation from an aerial view. It doesn't show the topography. The photographs you show gives you a sense of how far in off the sidewalk and the roads we actually have. are and then you also see the very large trees that line up on high street the one in the front yard that we want to avoid we don't want to wouldn't want to dig and kill any roots or do any harm to the existing trees we can we can modify that we can reduce it we can mix it up with live stuff making no guarantees but I think if you would let's continue this case come up with some different drawings and see whether where we where we can move I think staff needs to be listening to us that we are i think in general agreement that regardless of the view shed issues of the rest of ashland this being a border street a boundary street if you will our house that there needs to be some accommodation to to prevent people from cutting through your yard and from intruding into your own personal privacy so with that caveat in mind uh i think hopefully you the staff and you can work out some kind of an accommodation if not we'll come back and look at it again okay all right so i need an agreement for me to continue or to continue this matter okay when is our next meeting it'll be october 20th okay uh any further comments just an observation that don't worry that they aren't professional looking drawings we conceptually get ideas really fast. We're three-dimensional thinkers. So just give us something to look at so that we can ask reasonable questions. Okay, we will. Thank you. In fact, we had a wonderfully messy drawing with accompanying the High Street proposal that was very interesting and very hard to read, but we can deal with it. all right and uh process wise may i just note that the deadline for action for this case is october 15th so we'll send you an extension form and add another 30 days or something that'll we usually do it in round numbers of around 30s or 60s kind of thing and then when you've signed it and send it back we give it to the chair to sign and it just goes in the files as an it's a technical matter we're supposed to give you a decision by october 15 our next meeting is not until october 20 so we need a waiver if you will yeah so it's a waiver of the deadline okay yep if you walk by just knock on the door i'll uh only if you bring a little something for their trash can okay all right so any further comments or discussion on this motion i have a little bit i'm i'm not opposed to this okay so rather than continue it i'll go I'll go ahead and make a motion, and if you guys voted down, that's fine, but at least it might save us a little time down the road. You can make a motion. All right. To approve. Mr. Chair, regarding case number 00710293-Q at 293 South Ashland Avenue, I move to approve the application for a certificate of appropriateness with our two standard conditions, as well as, well, yeah. Under the findings, just our two standard conditions, with the findings that this does not obscure the view sheds and the landscape patterns of that neighborhood, given its unique context as a corner lot on High Street, and it's proposing similar features to the rest of High Street. All right. Do I have a second? Can we make a comment? Let me get a second. Then we can make a comment. Sorry. Do I have a second? Yes. Yes, I second for Mr. Irwin comments. I would like to make the comment that I don't support the fence, how it's designed right now. And I think there are motions that could be made that would make me vote yes for it. And I would like the opportunity for them to come with something that is a little bit of a compromise between just this hard fence on this property and giving them something that will help them, but will also. be a little bit closer to the guidelines before we actually vote on this and so i really liked the idea of trying to see another option that was gave them some of what they wanted but also worked with the the south aflans road a little bit more all right other comments can i make a comment or not nope not this time sorry we have to cut off at some point i'll make the comment that i think we need better drawings and that we need to review them and that's why i was trying to read the sense of the other board members and that's i'll vote against your motion josh other comments yeah i i would concur that i think we may not as a board fully understand exactly where that fence is proposed to go we don't really have a good yeah all right i'm gonna call the question all those in favor of josh's motion to approve a offense with two standard conditions and a condition that not be visually intrusive. Say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Nay. Nay. Nay. Aye. All right. Motion fails. We're not done yet. I need a motion to continue. Aye. Moved. Josh? I move to continue. October 20 was the date? Yes. All right. Do we have a second? Second. Second. All right. any discussion on that motion? Yes, ma'am. I do want in the record to note that my nay vote on the motion made does not mean I do not support the intent of what the owner homeowner is trying to do here. Right. And that's what I was trying to say too is I just think I want to see some other options to get to what is the best solution. Okay. That was the consensus I was reading that we are in agreement that some kind of a boundary needs to be put in place. We just need to figure out how to do it. All right, I'm going to call the question. All those in favor of the motion to continue to October 20th, say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. Motion passes, and we're continued. Thank you all. You've been very good to help us out with this. Any other business? I'm hearing no other business, or can we then? Mr. Chairman, case three needs to be postponed. that's right i'm sorry thank you good point i've lost my agenda does someone have it i would say yes but i've got it i've got mine as well uh okay item three slow down case three is it i've got it arcadia i've got it 256 bell place miss armstrong ramses All right. All right. I have a, we need to postpone the application for 256 Bell Place, and this is a postponement, not a continuance. Do I have a motion to that effect? So moved. Do I have a second? Second. Chair calls a question. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. Motion passes. It's postponed until October 20. Anything else? All right. Are we ready for a motion to adjourn? So moved. Second. Second. We are adjourned. Thank you all. I just wanted you to know I'm shaming I'm shaming I'm shaming Shaming I'm going to be shaming. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's a long face That's all the crying for Didn't you expect it When you opened your door To the man with the long coat And a long list of victims Everybody watching those He's the one keeping the score Where she sits, everyone stands in judgment People watching as the curtain falls down See the lights, the alarm's no way The show goes on And the sad sisters go walking on Everyone watching all along The show goes on As the old times are coming in The summer's all gone Still without you The show goes on Some say she's alright, some say she'll never learn. Some rush into things, some stare to wait their turn. I've been here all along, standing here all this time. But you never notice, let the same tired flames burn. From where I sit, everyone stands in judgment. Everybody watching as the curtain falls down. See the lights, do a long show fade. The show goes on. And the sad sisters go walking on Everyone watching all along The show goes on As the old times come and the summer's all gone Still without you, the show goes on Time is passing Slowly passing your fire You better try to try to find it Before it passes your fire As I watch you walking to Another cold dawn And to keep on walking And to keep on talking Talking all along Thank you. And the sad sisters go walking on Everyone watching all along The show goes on As the old times come again The summer's all gone Still without you The show goes on Oh, the summers are gone Still without you, the show goes on Oh, the summers are gone Still without you, the show goes on Thank you.