# Lexington Now - August 29, 2008 > Auto-transcribed civic record · August 29, 2008 - **Permalink**: https://meetings.lexingtonky.news/meeting/580 - **Source video**: https://lfucg.granicus.com/player/clip/580?view_id=14&redirect=true - **Date**: 2008-08-29 - **Last revised**: March 2, 2026 - **Length**: 4,959 words > ⚠️ **Auto-generated content.** Audio from the official Granicus video was auto-transcribed by OpenAI Whisper-1, with speaker labels folded in from Granicus closed-captioning. Structured facts were extracted with GPT-4o; the narrative summary was written by Anthropic Claude Sonnet. Speaker labels and verbatim wording may contain errors. See [methodology](https://meetings.lexingtonky.news/about/methodology) or [report a correction](mailto:editor@lexingtonky.news). --- ## Meeting Overview The Urban County Council convened with the Mayor presiding as the meeting's presiding officer. The meeting focused on one primary agenda item regarding a discussion on the TIF district and CenterPoint project, which was ultimately tabled for future consideration. During the session, the council conducted 2 motions and votes, heard 1 public comment from community members, and addressed 1 agenda item in total. The meeting concluded with the main discussion item being postponed, indicating that further deliberation will be needed at a subsequent meeting to move forward on the TIF district and CenterPoint project matter. *Note: Specific meeting date, time, and location information were not available in the provided materials.* ## Attendance All council members were present for the meeting. **Present:** • Mayor • Vice Mayor Gray • Council Member Myers • Council Member Blues • Council Member James • Council Member Gordon • Council Member DeCant • Council Member Crosby • Council Member McCord • Council Member Beard **Absent:** None **Late Arrivals:** None ## Votes and Decisions The council considered two motions during the meeting, both related to tabling a resolution regarding a TIF (Tax Increment Financing) district. **Motion 1 - Tabling Resolution (Withdrawn)** Council Member Myers made a motion to table the resolution regarding the TIF district until the next work session. The motion was seconded by Council Member James. However, this motion was subsequently withdrawn before a vote was taken. **Motion 2 - Tabling Resolution (Approved)** Council Member Myers then made a revised motion to table the resolution regarding the TIF district until the work session on the 9th. Council Member James seconded this motion as well. The motion to table was approved, effectively postponing consideration of the TIF district resolution until the specified work session date. No roll call votes were recorded for either motion, and specific vote counts were not documented in the meeting records. The decision to table the TIF district resolution means the council will revisit this matter during their work session scheduled for the 9th, allowing additional time for review and discussion before taking final action on the resolution. ## Public Comment One member of the public addressed the board during the public comment period. Eric Patrick Marr spoke regarding the TIF district and CenterPoint project. Marr expressed concerns about the feasibility and public perception of the CenterPoint project and the TIF district. He emphasized the importance of ensuring the project's success to maintain public trust in local government initiatives. *Note: Transcript timestamps were not available for this public comment period.* ## Contested Items The meeting featured one significant contested item involving a procedural dispute over a Tax Increment Financing (TIF) district resolution. **Resolution on TIF District** A debate emerged regarding whether to proceed with a resolution to move forward with establishing a TIF district. The disagreement centered on procedural concerns rather than the merits of the TIF district itself. Council members raised questions about the appropriateness of the process being followed and whether sufficient discussion and public input had been obtained before advancing the resolution. Some members expressed concerns that moving forward too quickly could undermine public trust and transparency in the decision-making process. The nature of the dispute focused on timing and procedure, with some officials advocating for additional time to gather community feedback and ensure all stakeholders had adequate opportunity to review and comment on the proposal. Others may have supported proceeding with the current timeline. The specific outcome of this procedural dispute was not clearly documented in the available materials, leaving the resolution's status uncertain at the meeting's conclusion. *Note: Specific timestamps, participant names, and the final resolution of this contested item were not available in the provided source materials.* ## Discussion on TIF district and CenterPoint project The council engaged in discussion regarding a Tax Increment Financing (TIF) district and the associated CenterPoint project. The conversation focused on several key components of the proposed development, including the overall development plan, local participation agreement, and determining which agency would be responsible for administering the TIF district. Key participants in the discussion included the Mayor, Council Member Myers, Council Member James, Council Member Blues, and Mr. Parsons. The speakers examined various aspects of the TIF district proposal and its implementation details. During the discussion, council members raised concerns about the process being followed for the TIF district establishment. Specifically, there were questions and concerns expressed about the need for public hearings as part of the proper procedural requirements for moving forward with the project. The council reviewed the development plan that would be supported by the TIF district, as well as the terms of the local participation agreement that would govern the municipality's involvement in the project. Administrative responsibilities and oversight of the TIF district were also topics of consideration during the meeting. Following the discussion of these various elements and the concerns raised by council members regarding proper procedures, particularly around public hearing requirements, the council ultimately decided to table the item. This outcome suggests that additional work or clarification may be needed before the council is prepared to move forward with approving the TIF district and CenterPoint project proposal. The tabling of this item indicates that further review, potentially including the required public hearings mentioned during discussion, will be necessary before the council revisits this matter at a future meeting. --- ## Decisions - **Motion** — withdrawn (0-0): Motion to table the resolution regarding the TIF district until the next work session - **Motion** — tabled (0-0): Motion to table the resolution regarding the TIF district until the work session on the 9th --- ## Full transcript by the Urban County Council, you'll have to act on the debt if debt is issued. There's a number of other things. There are some underwriting standards that would have to be met on the issuance of the TIF bonds. And there would probably have to be a detailed TIF study done, an independent TIF study, to verify the numbers that you're basing some of your revenue projections on just as an underwriting situation. So there's a number of public processes and other steps that are going to have to be taken before actual projects are moved forward. I would assume these projects would have to be designed. They'd have to be done. They'd have to be bid. There's public processes there. And anyway along the way, if there's a particular project that you determine is not appropriate or is not good for the area or the development, then those can be taken out. You're not locking yourself in at all at this level. Okay. I have just one final question, and that is, and it might need to be yours, Mayor. Who have we identified who will be actually putting together the development plan? I think we're going to be looking to Mr. Parsons and folks in the Department of Law primarily. They will be needing to get some information probably from the folks in finance, probably from folks in planning, and probably from the developers. But it's essentially a legal document. Okay. So if council members wanted to have input, which I think you said was appropriate, who should we give that to, Mr. Parsons? Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Council Member Myers. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you for coming in and your presentation. I have just a few questions. First, when you talked about the ordinance that we're going to have to approve and you talked about the building plan will be in there, the TIF district will be in there, there's several different things going to be in there. Can you go over what all is going to be in that? Yeah. The ordinance itself will, one, approve the development plan. That's one of the things it will approve. The other major document it will approve is the local participation agreement. And that's kind of the mirror agreement with the state incentive agreement. That local participation agreement is the amount of pledge that the Urban County Council is willing to make to this particular of the revenues that are eligible to you. That's part of the situation. That ordinance will have the findings in it to support that this area qualifies as a development area. So you would have to have the findings within that ordinance in that circumstance. The ordinance will also designate if you want a specific agency to be responsible for the administration of the TIF district. That will be in the ordinance also. I can get you an example of an ordinance there, but there's about four or five required things in the ordinance that would have to be part of that issue. The primary documents are designation of the agency responsible for administration of TIF, the development plan, the local participation agreement. Those documents also will then have the boundaries of the TIF district. You'll have exhibits on the financing plan and the conceptual financing plan and things like that. All that will be included in that ordinance document. Okay. That agency, is that normally a third party outside of the local government? No, not necessarily. It could be if you have a financing corporation. For instance, a number of communities have a public properties corporation. It could be them. It could be a city department that you designate responsible. If you have a downtown development group, you may want to use that as the entity. It could be even the urban county government is the agency responsible. So you don't have to designate a separate agency. A lot of times, though, it's the entity that's going to be responsible for the actual issuance of the debt. A number of them are looking at creating separate financing corporations under Chapter 58 of the Kentucky Revised Statutes to be the agency. And whatever agency you designate, that's the agency that's going to have the contractual relationship with the state. Okay. When you look at that development plan, I know you said it's not a normal development plan as we think about with respect to zoning. The agency that you spoke about, will they be the ones that have the ability to modify the development plan? No, that would have to be done. Since that's approved by ordinance of the urban county council, that would have to be approved by this body. And if you amended the TIF district, for instance, or changed that, that would have to come back and go through the same review process that a normal, the adoption process would go through. Okay. This question may have been asked before. But do we have an estimated tax increment? There was an estimate and there was a study that has been done for the center point area. And that did not include the entire development area, though. So that's one of the areas we'd have to do is go back and recalculate the baseline revenues and the other increments that are generated from the rest of the area. I believe that information is available. We can get that to you. Okay. I think before we heard a number of $35 million to $70 million. Is that? I think those numbers are not the increment, necessarily. Those are the numbers that might be financed with projects from the increment, actually, of local revenues and state is a significant, over a 30-year period, is a significant amount of money. Okay. I can get you those numbers, though. Vice Mayor said he thought it was $305? Yeah. Okay. So once the ordinance is drafted and passed, if, and I know you said that there's different ways that you could stage the actual projects, excuse me, so that you could wait until revenue started to come in before you actually created projects or started projects. What happens if we get halfway through and some projects have been completed, but the rest of the revenue doesn't come through? How are the decisions made or what entity makes the decisions on what projects will be done and which ones will be eliminated? A lot of that depends upon how you set the document up, how much authority. For instance, if you create a separate agency to administer that, how much authority do you give them to act? And that really depends upon how council wants to deal with that. And so you may have it set up that they have a certain ability to implement the program and things, but any major changes would have to come back to the council for approval, and that's one way of dealing with that circumstance. Here, when you have the, even if they make decisions, ultimately they don't issue the debt. They still have to come back. The council is the one ultimately approving the debt issue, if the debt's going to be issued, so you even have input on that side even if they make decisions differently. I think you have a lot of control in that particular situation of how you want to structure this particular deal. Okay, I was thinking more on the other end of the scale where the projects completed and some of the TIF projects that we wanted to see happen didn't happen. Well, the only reason that would happen is if for some reason the government decided not to do those projects. The revenues will be there. If the project's completed, they're spending off the revenues and things, and so ultimately that would have to be a decision of the council or the city not to move that particular project forward. Okay. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question. That's perfect. Okay, and I guess my last question is, and I'm not sure who to ask this question to, but the task force, we have just been given a plan here that shows the TIF district and proposed projects. Yeah. Is this the total list of projects that were discussed throughout the task force, or is this the abbreviated what we came up with? There were some discussion of certain projects that were outside the TIF district that were not eligible. They have to be spent within the TIF district in that circumstance, but I don't know if this is a complete list or not. What you got was two documents, or actually three documents. You had the map, and then there is the listing of projects, two pages, I believe. Those were the projects that were pertaining to this development area proposal. So you have all the ones that pertain to that development proposal, which is on the map. Excuse me. Okay. I'm sorry. Let me try again. I'm sorry. What you got was three documents. You got the map, and you got a list of projects, which I think Councilmember Gordon was holding up there a while ago. Two pages. Those were the projects that were relevant to the development area that is being recommended to you that were considered. The ones that there are some that are plotted on the map, but then there is the list that's attached that has two or three more projects that were considered that aren't on the map. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. Councilmember Blues. Thank you, Mayor. Mr. Parsons, near the beginning of your presentation earlier on, you said that normally in moving toward a TIF proposal or a TIF project, the developer and other entities, you know, establish a good relationship to create the project. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? Well, basically a TIF process is in a sense a partnership between a private and public development in that circumstance. So you do have a relationship between the fact because you're using the spinoff of revenues from the private development to do projects within the TIF district and in a sense to support in some way the private development that's going forward. So you do have a relationship. It doesn't have to be a good relationship, but it's better if it's a good relationship in that circumstance. But it is a give-and-take process between the local government and the developer and putting it together. Thank you. Councilmember James. Thank you, Mayor. When I look at the resolution that Dr. Stephens passed around, a couple of things, well, just one thing, I think that needs to be clarified, and this is not a task force. So I think within the resolution that we need to, a task force operates differently than the delegation. So I think that we need to make it clear in the resolution that it's not a task force. That's referenced in Paragraph 2 and 3. I think that's supposed to be in Paragraph 2. It says task force instead of task force, but it should be delegation. If we can get that corrected, I think that's important. Also, I think that I need some clarification on why we need this resolution. We did a resolution to create a delegation, and I had concerns about a resolution to create a delegation instead of just creating the delegation. And now I'm wondering, who gets this? Why is this coming before us, and why is this necessary? And I'm asking that, Dr. Stephens, because we're going to see more TIFs down the line. So I want to make sure that what we're doing is creating a process that's user-friendly for all TIF projects, and I don't, just if you could explain maybe your reasoning and intent of bringing this resolution before us, when it seems as if the document that's actually working or the law that will be needed will be the actual ordinance and not this resolution. Well, the group of seven, and I think you were there at many of the meetings, doesn't represent the whole council. And I think if the whole council wants to proceed with working towards an ordinance, this is the mechanism by which we do that. It's instructing the government to go ahead and start working on this in the various departments and work with the developer to develop the development plan and the other parameters that go into this so that we can consider it at a later date in an ordinance. And thank you for that explanation. I just, I think that we as a council should be very careful that, you know, week after week or month after month, when we have a resolution that an end result is something and we're headed towards that end result, that we almost need to let the delegation work. The delegation could have done a report out of their findings, but I don't know that the council as a whole, who has not until today received all of this information, can really support a resolution or should even be asked to support a resolution based on something that a final ordinance will have to do. And I'm saying that because the issue of the public improvements, we talked about this at the delegation. I came to some of the meetings, many of the meetings, and, you know, there was a question about the pedway, which I did not see on one drawing. I didn't see the pedway on one list. I didn't see it, and on this one it was here. And it actually came up for a vote in the delegation of whether it was to be included or not. And it didn't get a second, so it failed. But that's the kind of thing with the types of projects that should be full council discussion, I believe. And those are the kinds of things that I think we should be involved in. Those are the kinds of recommendations that can come from the delegation to the full council for submission and to an ordinance, but not a resolution confirming and nearly binding us, then to move forward to an ordinance is something that we're kind of stuck with. So I would just ask caution of the council that we make sure whatever we're doing now, please know that every TIF project that comes before us later, we're either going to have to replicate it or explain why we're not replicating the same process. I don't know if you have anything to say about that, but I have a couple more questions, and I'll move on with my questions if you want to respond later. Let me address that particular issue. For one thing, the preparation of the development plan, the ordinance, and the related documents is going to be a much more involved process than four or five pages. Absolutely. So if, as we discussed in the delegation meeting, if there are only seven people on the council who think it's a good idea to go forward, there's no point in incurring all of that time, effort, and expense for no reason. This would give us some indication that there's at least a majority of the folks on the council who are interested in pushing ahead so that the expenditure of Mr. Parsons' time and everybody else's time, energy, and effort in preparation of the ordinance and the other documents would be productive. So, Mayor, is there, with that, is it necessary to include every element of this resolution? So if you're saying, in order to move forward, what if the only holdup are the public improvements and the ones that we have questions about? So you've now encompassed all of the public improvements, the boundaries, the directing the introduction of an ordinance, all of the language that's in the resolution. You've now encompassed all of that, so it's all or nothing, and it's the same kind of thing that we've dealt with before with some resolutions coming forward, that it's an all or nothing thing and you feel council members could feel confined to one way or the other. I wouldn't characterize it as an all or nothing proposition. I mean, this is the recommendation from the delegation to the council as a whole. If you don't like this list of projects, today we have the opportunity to modify this in such a fashion as to add or subtract public improvement projects to this list. Whatever the end result of that debate is then goes to Mr. Parsons and others to develop a comprehensive list. Furthermore, once that ordinance is produced, we're going to discuss it at a work session. We'll have another opportunity to discuss it. We're going to have it on a council meeting for first reading. There will be another opportunity to discuss it. There will be a public hearing. There will be an opportunity to discuss it. And there will be a council meeting where there is a second reading, another opportunity to discuss it. So now is the time if we're going to modify the list, it would be helpful to modify it, but it is not the only time. There will be at least three other instances where there will be other opportunities to discuss it, plus a public hearing. Sure, thank you for detailing the process, and that's the kind of language that we need is very detailed information, and I appreciate that. And I don't know if all council members knew that today was the time to add or subtract projects from this proposal. It is a time. It is not the only time. It is just an effort to try to get the process moving ahead. So if you want to add or subtract today, you can. If you want to add or subtract at the next work session, you can. Next reading meeting, you can. Second reading meeting, you can. So there are at least three other opportunities to add or subtract to the list. Sure, and every moment counts. So if council members do have items they'd like to add or subtract, I would encourage you to get those in as quickly as you possibly can because every moment does count, and we've seen in government that things can move pretty quickly right before our eyes. That's all the questions that I have. Thank you. My couple of items. Council Member James made some comment about not having seen the list or the map. Actually, that was presented earlier, and it's been printed in the paper, and so I don't think this is any. I think you were. No, I said that the pedways, the pedways. Yeah, and there was not a vote on the pedways because there wasn't a second. I said that. You said. You must have missed it. Yeah, I did say that. You said a vote, and then you corrected it. No, I said there was a vote, and I said, but it didn't pass because there wasn't a second. Because there wasn't a vote. Right. No vote without a second on a motion. Also. Yes, I know that, sir. The delegation. The delegation. It's called a task force, and all the minutes, if you've seen it, it's been called a task force. What was it called in the ordinance? I don't know. For the resolution. It was a resolution, but we can go back and look. We'll call it whatever. Yeah, check that. That would be happy to change that if you would like. Council Member DeCant. Thanks, Mayor. Just a comment on the projects. I mean, you know, I'm a member of the TIF committee, and I think the committee did go over to a great extent. I mean, there are some things that we're going to be able to talk about again, because there are certain things that I don't agree that should be on there. I've never been big on pedways, and I think there will be a lot of discussion about that before this is all settled. In reference to the resolution, I feel a little uncomfortable. I think at the last meeting you said that there would be a resolution which would determine the district and also the list of public improvements, which we have said today could be added to or taken away from. I'm a little uncomfortable with Section 3 in where the way I understand it, the process is that a development plan is prepared, and I think that development plan will have more input from the TIF committee before it is developed, and then there's a public hearing, and then we wait 30 days. And, you know, we use the word directed to prepare an ordinance. You know, I think we have to be very careful in preparing ordinances before we have public hearings. And, I mean, even the idea that we would try to do something without a public hearing, I think that we get in trouble that way, and I think we should hear what the public has to say before we even bring up the word ordinance. And I think that it might be in there something to create a process by which to accomplish a TIF. I just feel somewhat uncomfortable with asking to direct to prepare an ordinance. I don't think we should prepare an ordinance, even think about preparing an ordinance, until we have the development plan and also that we have the public hearing. If it's a 30-day waiting period after the public hearing, I think at which time an ordinance could be written at that time. But I think it's just not a smart thing to put that into a resolution at this point. Council Member Myers. Thank you, Mayor. I guess my concerns about this whole thing are, is there one more meeting left of the task force delegation? I believe we're meeting on tomorrow, sir. But the agenda item on that meeting is the distillery district. There's nothing scheduled on the agenda to deal with the Centerpoint project further. I'm sorry, can you say that again? The issue on the agenda for tomorrow's meeting is the distillery district. Okay. Not the Centerpoint project. Okay. Thank you, because that definitely helps. But looking at number three, I guess where I stand is I'm not sure why we're being asked to vote on this today. And I know that's not, I'm not directing that to you, sir, because that's not a question you can answer. But I'm the one that made the motion to ask the developer to do the TIF. So I am in favor of the TIF, don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the process here in bringing this resolution before us. I was under the assumption that we were going to hear a report out from the task force today, not be asked to vote on a resolution. And, again, I'm not directing this to you. I understand. And, you know, when you look at all the language in here, it seems to begin to finalize some things that we haven't necessarily gotten to that point on yet. I'm in favor of the TIF. I've been in favor of the TIF from day one. And I understand that we have a process to go through in terms of putting it on the docket and first and second reading and all that. But I would think that I would move that we table this until after the next work session when we have a chance to discuss the development plan and maybe get some more ideas with respect to the agency that's going to be assigned to managing this project and some of the other things that we need to have some questions around. So that's going to be my motion is to table this until after we have that next work session and we can have some more information come forward. I have a motion and second to table the resolution until the next work session. All right. In which this will be on the docket to discuss. And also, Councilman Edgar also spoke up about the public hearing. And can we get a public hearing scheduled in the interim? Well, we have let's take up the public hearing in just a second. Okay. That motion is debatable only insofar as we wish to debate whether to postpone it to next week or some other time. Right. We still have a couple of people here to speak to the issue. And I suppose we need to go ahead and vote on the motion to table. But I would like to try to get their input before they get away. I would withdraw the motion to hear further comment. I didn't in many means want to stop comment. All right. Then if you don't mind withdrawing the motion, if you'll withdraw the second. Is there anybody else that wishes to ask questions of Mr. Parsons today? All right. Then the two people I had who had signed up were Laura Doherty and Eric Patrick Marr. Mr. Marr, if you'll. All right. Okay. If you'll give us your address and state your name, please. You'll have three minutes. Okay. Hello. My name is Eric Patrick Marr, and I live at 4165 Hartwood Road. I've been attending the TIF delegation task force committee meetings and listening to you guys today. And I just wanted to first thank Councilmember Crosby and McCord and Beard and the camp for engaging me in and Vice Mayor Gray for engaging me in conversation over the last few weeks. I very much appreciate that. And the citizens really appreciate that, too. I just want to address some things not quite as technical as the things you guys have been talking about today, more what I call fundamental or overall ideas. It seems to me as a government that our government should be looking out for the whole entire city and the long-term aspects of this project. And based upon what seems to me evidence that our government and our people are very much disconnected and disengaged and what's not, I just want to ask some fundamental overall questions about the TIF process and CenterPoint. I'm not for or against. I think everybody's in favor of a great investment of money, a great TIF process with public developments. Nobody is against that stuff. I think the question the government has to ask is, is this really going to happen? Because if it doesn't happen, if for some reason the financing doesn't come through or CenterPoint is not developed or it doesn't stimulate the economy the way it's projected to, then it seems like the government would be responsible for that as far as a public opinion. And then more disengagement, more distrust and what not. And so it seems to me the fundamental question is, is this actually going to come to pass or not? And because the developers are not willing to disclose the financing, which is understandable from a privacy point of view, it seems like from a government city point of view that seems to be a fundamental question because we're basing a whole lot of decisions upon that one thing. So I want to go. I have one minute left. Man, that goes fast. So I just want to quickly, without talking about whether financing is there or not, I just want to talk about strictly assuming that the money is there, is CenterPoint going to be an economic engine that it's presented to be? And I don't know how to make this thing go forward. Okay. So I talked to you guys a couple weeks ago about behavioral economics integrating people's emotions, physics, vibrations, and then the actual economics of things to see if things actually work. Alan Greenspan, who I think a lot of people – I've got 30 seconds. I've been dealing with big – Alan Greenspan said, I've been dealing with big mathematical models. And, you know, if I could figure out if people are more fearful or euphoric, then I could predict the economy better than any way I know. And so what I ask is, is CenterPoint, are there vibrations? Is this whole project, is it truly inspiring Lexingtonians? Is there just great big energetic buzz around Lexington? Is this really going to work or not? God, this goes so fast. As opposed to, like, a new distillery district, which people seem to be really engaged with, a new rep arena, which seems to be very positive. The things that produce positive energy over time seems to be – I'm sorry, I'm running out of time. Anyway, I think we can do better if we just – the process could be better, I think. I'm sorry, I don't have time. Thank you, Mr. Martin. Now, is there anyone else that wishes to speak to the TIF issue? To the TIF issue? All right. Now, Council Member Meyers. Thank you, Mayor. I move to table this until – I guess we need to come up with a date. We don't have a work session next week, so – The 9th. Council Member James, do you second that again? Yes. All right. Do you want me to come up with a date? The 9th. Oh, the 9th. That counts as a work session. All right. Any discussion on the – limited to the question of the date on which we bring this back up?