Thank you. . Thank you. I'm sorry. Thank you. This is August 24th, 2023. Welcome everyone to the zoning items public meeting. I'd like to call this meeting to order. And second on the agenda here is the approval of the June 22nd and July 27th, 2023 minutes. The floor is open for a motion for those approval of the two minutes. Ms. Wirth. Mr. Chair, I move for approval of the minutes of June 22nd and July 27th as submitted by staff. Thank you. Do we have a second to that motion? Seconded by Ms. Boxdale. Okay. And I think Mr. Wilson's computer is not working, so we're going to take a vote via hands right now. So all in favor, please raise your hand. Okay. Motion passes unanimously. Thank you. Any postponements and withdrawals? Chairman Forrester, we do have one item that has been postponed a few times, but they are asking for another postponement in order to return to the Zoning Committee, and that would be on page four of your agenda, the Lexington Center Corporation, text amendment, in Zota 23-2, an amendment to Article 17 for additional electronic message display signage, including video in the Lexington Center business zone. So they're asking for a one-month postponement to the September, I believe it's 28th. Okay. Thank you. Any questions? Okay, floor is open for a motion. Yes, Mr. Paul. I move to approve one month's postponement for PLN Zota 23-2 to September 28th. Thank you. Do we have a second? Second. Seconded by Mr. Davis. Mr. Wilson, are you okay over there yet? All right. All in favor, please raise your hand, right hand. Motion passes unanimously. Thank you. So that should put us on page two of the agenda, PLN MAR 23-11. Mr. Crumb. All right. All right. Good afternoon, everyone. Daniel Crumb, planning staff. Our sole case today is PLN MAR 2311. This is a request by Clear Optics LLC and it is a request to rezone .613 acres of the property at 1617 Clay's Mill Road from a professional office, P1 zone, to a neighborhood business, B1 zone. The applicant is seeking this rezoning in order to utilize the former bank building on the property as a restaurant slash coffee shop with an accessory drive-through facility. applicant in their letter of justification touches on a place type and development type proposed for the application. They propose an enhanced neighborhood place type and a low density non-residential slash mixed use development type. Staff agrees that both the proposed place type and development type can be appropriate at this location. So moving forward to orient ourselves to the location of the subject property. So we here, we'll Here we have the subject property located generally near the intersection of Harrodsburg Road and Clay's Mill Road. Moving in a little bit closer, we can see the relationship with the surrounding streets as well as the zoning. So the subject property, shown in white, is bound on three sides by Harrodsburg Road as you're going into town, Clay's Mill, and then McCoving Drive right here. In this vicinity, Harrodsburg Road is an arterial as well as Clay's Mill Road, but McCubbing is a local drive. You'll notice around the subject property is primarily residential zoning. Up until the early 1970s, this entire area was zoned R1C. However, with these two significant roadways nearby, the properties were redeveloped in the 1970s and on, and it shifted from a residential to seeking to do local business and professional office uses. So these commercial properties, shown in red, this was rezoned. The corner piece here that has the Hart's dry cleaning business was rezoned to B1 in the 1970s. The subject property itself went from the residential to the P1 that currently exists today in order to accommodate the bank and the drive-thru in 75. And then 85, the adjoining parcel to the north, was zoned to B1 in order to establish a fast food restaurant there. So that was a Ritzi's with a drive-through with B1 zoning as well. And so in the immediate vicinity, you also have the Picadome neighborhood to the east and the Skycrest neighborhood to the west across Harrodsburg Road. Here we have an aerial of the subject property where you can see the general relationship to the surrounding buildings. So you can see the existing bank building. The building on site was constructed in the 90s. It was redeveloped in the early 90s, but it's had that drive-through facility there for some time. The surrounding uses include today a physical therapy office, a drive cleaner with a pickup window. This is the technical school, which may be relocating to another location, and then single-family residential development further south, further along Clays Mill Road, on the opposite sides of Clays Mill Road and the opposite sides of Harrodsburg Road. It's also worth noting that this area does have transit service, and there is a transit stop located here closer to the intersection at Clay's Mill in Harrodsburg Road. We have some images of the subject property as it exists today. Throughout this rezoning, one of the kind of the core things we touched upon is the applicant is primarily utilizing the site as is. They're making some modifications, but they're not proposing any building expansions. They are not proposing any change to the pattern of access for the site and are keeping the drive-through configuration largely as it has been since the use was established in the mid-70s. So here, this is a view of the subject property and the building of itself from Clay's Mill Road, as well as the back side of the building. So the drive-through from the site circles along the border with a commercial property, goes around the back of the property near Harrodsburg Road, where it's served at a drive-through window, this existing window here. There are existing lanes that were dedicated to the bank use that will be converted into parking. So it will be a singular drive-through lane with stacking for approximately 10 cars that will be served at this existing drive-through window here. To give you an idea of kind of what the roadways look like in the vicinity, this is a view on Clay's Mill looking south. So you've got, this is an area that was redeveloped recently with the modifications and improvement to Clay's Mill. So you've got dedicated bike lanes that run adjacent to the subject property and extend further south. You've got a pedestrian crossing here with sidewalks that extend down Clay's Mill Road and then down towards the opposite direction towards the intersection with Harrodsburg. This is the view going the opposite way on Clay's Mill Road. So once again, you've got your bike lane running here, pedestrian sidewalks. And it is worth noting that this is an existing access point. And whereas the previous access point with McCubbin here has a right-only turn movement and signage that designates that, the access point further up on Clay's Mill does not have that same limitation. So this is a full access point that has served the site historically. without any kind of median divides within Clay's Mill Road due to kind of the narrow width of what they have to work with in the vicinity. Here we have the view of Harrodsburg. So this is looking north as you're going into the downtown. So once again, we've got sidewalk facilities here and then the roadway with the divided grass median in portions. And then this is the view on the opposite angle. So this is the view from McCubbin if you were making a right on what uncommon traffic would look like in the vicinity. So once again, there are also sidewalk networks that carry you south towards the existing residential areas. So here we have a view of the proposed site plan. So this is largely keeping the existing configuration of the site the same. So you've got this existing 2,300 square foot structure, not proposing any existing additions, keeping the two access points, one onto McCubbing and one onto Clay's Mill. Traffic would generally circulate for the drive-through facility use along that shared property line with the commercial use where it would loop around and be served at the building here. This portion of the site is being reconverted into parking spaces, so there won't be any conflicts with multiple drive-through lanes. It's just a singular lane there. traffic from this will leave the site either through McCubbing or circulate back out to Clay's Mill Road. So from McCubbing you have the option if you want to go back into town to do that only using right hand turns by either going through Harrodsburg or if you're wanting to leave town you can come down McCubbing and make a right there. So there's that access valve as well in addition to their access point on Clay's Mill. They're also proposing several minor changes to the site and they are incorporating outdoor dining and seating approximately 16 seats there for outdoor dining as well as several proposed parking spaces here. So getting into the applicant's letter of justification, first I'm going to touch on the place type and development type. So the applicant has indicated that this is going to be an enhanced neighborhood place type. This speaks to existing residential areas that can be served by additional businesses or community amenities. This really talks about being in keeping with the context of the area as well as providing for connectivity. Here the applicant has really tailored their letter of justification towards how this particular use can serve the surrounding residential areas and providing connections to those areas. And so with the place type, the existing residential area nearby, they are located near a major corridor. So Harrodsburg Road is an arterial roadway and is generally can be considered corridor however the way that they've developed the property without direct access to harrodsburg and trying to orient it towards being a more neighborhood scale use and more walkable use and one that activates it with outdoor seating they are seeking to place it in an enhanced neighborhood staff agrees with the applicant's choice and place type the place type recommends a low density non-residential sex misuse which is what the applicant is proposing so they're using an existing one-story building. They're going to activate it further with the outdoor seating, but really are relying on those connections. So they have connections to transit, connections to multimodal with the bicycle lanes, as well as existing pedestrian networks. So lower scale, lower intensity, providing a neighborhood-oriented use. So staff also is in agreement with the choice and development type. Moving on to the comprehensive plan, the proposal meets kind of a variety of goals, objectives, and policies. Theme A, goal 2B, talks about respecting the context and design features of these areas around the development. Here, they're not changing it. They are using the existing building, using that existing urban form, using that existing scale that has been present since the 1990s when the site was redeveloped most recently. Theme E, goal 1D, talks about reutilizing these underutilized parcels, so vacant or underutilized parcels. This is providing new use that has applications within the community that it's around. The theme A, goal 3B calls for promoting these safe social interactions. So providing for outdoor seating that's going to activate this, providing for connections to the neighborhood through the sidewalks and the other various modes of transportation such as transit. There's some policies that speak to this, specifically design policy 12 and density policy three that call for kind of creating these neighborhood level commercial areas. While there is a large amount of commercial activity that happens further down Harrodsburg and Clay's Mill, this particular, particularly close to the intersection with Lane Allen, this sits as sort of an in-between point where the surrounding neighborhoods don't really have a local walkable commercial opportunity there. So this kind of provides a commercial opportunity in an area where such services are lacking. Finally, the sustainability policy 2 calls for promoting roadway, pedestrian, and bicycle connectivity. Once again, this has access to the sidewalk networks up and down Harrodsburg and Clays Mill, has access to the designated bike lanes, access to transit, and provides for the single-user vehicle as well. As far as development criteria, a lot of these are the kind of same emphasis with promoting connections. So once again, connections to transit, connections to sidewalk networks, connections for bicyclists. Minimizing contrast and scale, massing and design, once again, utilizing existing buildings, utilizing existing site layout. They kind of keep the way that this site has operated since at least the early 90s. Development provides for a connected multimodal transportation network. Once again, transit is available within approximately 100 feet of the subject property there with a direct pedestrian access. And then finally, linkages to transit should be provided, as we just stated, and working with the existing landscape. So this is an already developed site. There's really not any natural features to disrupt. This is utilizing existing building that has become vacant because the tenant has left. And so it is utilizing the existing landscape kind of as is. So staff is recommending approval of this request. We find it's in line with the comprehensive plan's goals, objectives, and policies, talking about supporting infill and redevelopment, providing neighborhood-scale uses, utilizing existing sites in an efficient manner, and providing connections to the surrounding areas. We also find it's in agreement with the development criteria for site design, building form and location, transportation and pedestrian connectivity, and green space and environmental health. As always, Mr. Martin will be on momentarily to discuss the development plan and the review from that angle. But this is subject to the approval and certification of the corresponding development plan. So with this, staff would be happy to entertain any questions you have about the zoning of the site. Otherwise, Mr. Martin will be on to talk about the development plan in a little bit more detail. Any questions for Mr. Crum? Mr. Chairman, I've got not a question to stay, but Daniel, let me just say thanks for coming up with a laser pointer that we can see, or I can see. And then also, I'm very intrigued that you can point to one, but it shows up on both of them. Technology is incredible. Thank you. Thank you, sir. All right. Mark. Good afternoon. Members of the Planning Commission, the development plan associated with the zone change is on page 3 of your agenda. It is PLNMJDP 23-43, First Security Bank National Building. And I'm happy with this technology too, Mr. Owens, and learned that it's not a laser, it's software. We're manipulating the computer when we do this. Here we go. Let's see if I've got it, because this is, well, that'll help me focus. in. Oops. Look what I did. This is my first time. That's what I'm looking at. We're not lost my plan. Oh. How did this happen? I just practiced with it and it worked. I got tech support. There you go. Number 20. Give me that plan. That's what I need. Side 20. There we go. All right. Now, let's hope that. Hold it down. Yeah, go on. That's my fault. Again, can I go back? Hold it. I really did practice before this. Okay, all right, let's try again. All right, so two. Yeah, well, we can circle around it, certainly. As Daniel already... Hold on. Now all I'm going to do is click it twice and go to the pointer, is that correct? Just click it twice and then hold it down. That's what's killing me is holding it down. There we go. I got there. There it is. So, Daniel, I'll explain to you, here's Harrisburg Road, McCubbin Drive, Clay's Mill Road. They are utilizing the existing development on the site. The building is a little over 2,300 square feet. Nice, pretty square that you can see there. The utilization of the site for a new development is really part of the challenge on this site. They're maintaining the circulation, the canopy over the bank, drive-through, drop-off points, those types of things are utilized as parking, as Daniel mentioned. It creates an odd but relatively deep stacking area for the cars, which is important. The access off of McCubbins is fairly standard. This is a large access point right here. The apron is fairly large. You can see the parking in this area. And then here's the solid waste dumpster. They're actually procuring an easement in order to place that dumpster because it's going to encroach a little bit on the adjoining property so that they can have solid waste service. So, again, when we reviewed this plan, staff is always concerned about access. And we're always concerned about making access better. Those of you that have been on the Planning Commission a while may recall, and those of you who have come back, when Zaxby's came in on South Broadway and we had the gas station next to it and the Zaxby's, we had a big access discussion. And we were able to eliminate one of those access points. But part of that discussion was the ability to utilize the site and to get trucks in on that gas station site. That became the issue and why we couldn't further eliminate some of the access points. There are multiple access points right through here on Clay's Mill. And so, again, that is a concern. And particularly, if you look at that Clay's Mill access point, it's just ain't going to, yeah, right here, there's a lot happening. You got solid waste coming in here. You have the stacking where the people are coming in into the drive-through. You've got parking. It's an active area. So in our discussions, staff met with the applicant, and we discussed what options were available to make this better. It became apparent that fire needed two access points, and to get their large vehicles in, they needed this access point in order to maneuver on the site. Solid waste had a similar problem. Solid waste will have to come in and service this, back up, and then exit onto Clay's Mill. That meets their standards. It meets their clearance standards. Again, safety is what drives them. They want to be safe. They're trying to avoid accidents. So with that, because staff actually initial reaction was, can we get rid of that? Can we make this better? Can we help Clay's Mill traffic? And again, with discussions with the various staff members and agencies, it was determined that we needed to maintain this access point. So we went then to a discussion of what can we do to emphasize other types of safety. As mentioned, there's directional signs that are going to be placed at this access, directing people to Harrodsburg Road and downtown. This is a right only, as mentioned by Mr. Crum. And we just recently had a discussion with the applicant to place pedestrian warning signs along these access points to try to heighten people's awareness that there will be pedestrians in the area. So with that, when you look at your agenda, you'll see that we just have standard sign-offs for a final development plan. They need to add bicycle parking to the plan. Again, there's plenty of areas for that to add the bicycle parking. And we're going to see some enhanced landscaping as well on the site. And with that, I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have for staff. Any questions for staff? And I would add your subdivision committee did recommend approval of the plan. Well, I have a question. In the original development plan, those three spaces under the covered awning weren't listed as parking. That does seem like maybe, I mean, I would have maybe hoped for a more creative use of that awning space. Was there discussion with staff over that? We were curious about it, and we talked about it, and their immediate response was they want to maintain the canopy and utilize that space, so they just added parking under it. I'm sure there's other options would exist for them. Okay, thanks. Okay, thank you, Mr. Martin. This is really just a confirmation. When we looked at the development plan and the development committee, subdivision committee, we talked about the traffic flow variation morning and afternoon. And what I'm understanding you to say is the adjustments made here are about what we can do to make that work well. Is that correct? Yes, ma'am. And we did look at that, and we've talked about that. And I think one of the things that helps this development is that it's a breakfast fast food place. So its impact traffic wise will be primarily in the mornings, not in the evenings. So that's helpful. Again, there's going to be traffic and there's going to be people utilizing the site. Anyone else? Thank you, Mr. Martin. Mr. Murphy. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm Dick Murphy. I'm pleased today to be representing Clear Optics, LLC, which is a company owned by two local people. Chad Volkert is here with me in the second row. His partner is Jeremy Corbett. And Tony Barrett is with us from Barrett Partners, our designer. As the staff mentioned, this is located near the intersection of Clay's Mill Road and Harrodsburg Road. We're bounded on three sides by streets. It's the former, as you know, location of a Chase Bank location. It started out as First Security back in the 1970s and became a Chase. clear optics Chad and Jeremy purchased it two years ago in 2021 the lots to the north of us are zone B1 already they are the physical therapy building which is right next to us previously was a mattress store then to the north of us right at the intersection is hearts dry cleaner, which has a drive-through window. That was previously a Concord Custom plan. I'll get to that one in a second, but it was previously a Concord Custom dry cleaner as well. As the staff has mentioned, there was a G.D. Ritzy's restaurant on this site many years ago. It was sort of a gourmet hamburger restaurant with a drive-through window located to the north of us on those two lots as well. Our property is zoned P1, which was rezoned when First Security put its branch in in the 70s. The property right north of us is zoned B1, neighborhood business. And going now to my first piece of page, it was interesting. I looked up at the old comprehensive plan maps on this property, not that it's determinative to you. We have Place Builder now, but you sort of look at that as what the city's plans were. And I'll try this thing out if I can. It won't work on that. Oh, it won't, yeah. Okay. In the computer. He told me that before the meeting, and I forgot it already. But this is the 2007 comprehensive plan, the last one that had a map on it. And just looking at it, this is the intersection right here of Place Mill and Harrisburg Road. And the red area, which is the retail trade and personal services, the one that B1, neighborhood business, agrees to, goes all the way down to McCubbin Drive. So it included our property in the recommendation for retail trade back in 2007. And that went back through 1980. If you go to the second one, that's, I think, the 2001 Comprehensive Plan. Again, the red part, the retail trade part, goes all the way down to McCubbing Drive there as well. And going to the next one, which I think is the 1988, excuse me, 1996 plan, again, we have the red here going down to McCubbing. The blue, the light blue is the schools. The darker blue is professional office. All these plans had a separate category for professional office, but this property was put in the red retail trade category. Just going to the next one, which I think is the 88 plan. Again, we had the same result there. It was all designated for commercial uses. And then going back to 1980, which is the last one, if you could show the last one there. This is the 1980 plan, which again showed this property all red. So I just do that for historic purposes, that for the last 43 years, well, in the 40 years up to 2007 when we had map-based plans, it was always designated for commercial uses like the two properties to the north. Now we have Place Builder. We have to use Place Builder on it, but as the staff has mentioned, we are in agreement with the commercial proposals for the Place Builder as well. So I think the history of this, the recent history of this is important. As I mentioned at the subcommittees, when Chad and Jeremy purchased this property in 2021, Chase put deed restrictions on the property, which they do on all the bank locations they sell. They said for a period of 10 years from the date of sale, the property could not be used as another bank or as a credit union or as a savings and loan or as a financial advisor like an Edward Jones or something like that. Couldn't even be used as a check cashing service or even have an ATM on it. So it's been restricted quite a great deal by Chase. those restrictions ran for a period of 10 years from when they purchased it in in 2021 so with the restriction that's on it i mean the most likely user would have been another branch bank on this and the general downturn in the professional office market which we're going through right now it's made it very difficult to find a user for the property in fact for the last three years this property has been vacant except for a period of three or four months when it was used as a covet testing center other than that it was vacant with the p1 zoning that's what proposed the investigation of the property for commercial purposes the building is very solidly built as a bank if you could maybe go to the first photograph we have there the staff had a photograph just like this but this is the bank location right now it's got a vault inside it it's well built and we wanted to preserve the building what we're proposing here is a low intensity use low intensity commercial use it's a breakfast brunch lunch restaurant we'll have a drive-through window but the result of that is there's virtually no traffic in the afternoon so we will be greatly decreasing the afternoon traffic as compared to the bank that was there before the appearance will remain the same except that we will make it i think a little bit better because this area on the left here will be enlarged this parking space will be removed this parking space will be removed it'll make it a outdoor dining area for for the restaurant we'll also be doing a couple other things to dress up the property but in essence it'll stay the same which i think is important because it presents a a low imp low i won't say low impact but a neighborhood friendly facade right now with the mansard type roof low elevation on it we'll be keeping that the we'll retain the existing streetscape we'll reduce the carbon footprint by using this same building because as you know there's a lot of carbon footprint issues when you do new construction but we'll retain this building we'll hopefully provide a place for neighbors to meet have breakfast have lunch or brunch it'll remain at a neighborhood scale and we will have bike racks clay as mr. Crum pointed out clays mill road now has has bicycle lanes on it so we'll be having bicycle racks and we'll be maintaining and improving the pedestrian connections on this property the wanted to discuss traffic on on this property because that was discussed at the at the subcommittees if we could go to the staffs slide of the development plan I hesitate to try to bring that up but see if I can there we go let me Excuse me, try this. This weight is, I did it, I'm sorry. I click this. Just press not hold it. Okay. Two more times and you get that. Oh, no, press it. Press it and press it down and hold it. okay pick it back with this yes press this one just want to get the little pointer get president too quick there we go okay two clicks and hold on the second? Yeah. Okay. Do another one. I didn't hold it down. There. Okay. I just got to hold this thing down. Okay. So here is our Clay's Mill Road frontage. Here's our McCubbing Drive frontage. Here's our Harrodsburg Road frontage on here. As I mentioned, our proposal is not going to generate afternoon traffic, so we're going to be really decreasing the traffic in the PM period. We will be increasing the traffic in the morning as compared to the bank at its peak time in the morning. We'll be increasing it somewhat. But it was difficult to calculate because there's no category in the Institute of Traffic Engineers manuals relating to the breakfast, lunch, brunch restaurants. Okay. So the fast food restaurants have a greater generation than we do because we don't operate 24-7 or even 16-7 or whatever. so we have less generation than that, but we will be, we anticipate, we'll be generating a little bit more traffic than the existing bank did when it was operating as a bank. Our traffic flow, the firehouse is up here just north of Piccadome Elementary School. If they're coming to our location, they would come up here, they would pull in this entrance point, which is why we don't want to have a feature in the middle of it, because it would block the truck coming in. The truck's not going to take a right. It's going to come in and eventually exit on the coming drive. So we need to keep this open for that. If the engine is on call from Picadome and they come up north on Clay's Mill Road, they'll be pulling a left in here to our building and again coming out the rear area we also need to keep this open for dumpster usage there was some discussion about the fact that this i'll keep my finger on this thing while i'm talking here i'm afraid to take it off but the there was discussion of the subcommittees about cut through traffic in the neighborhood and there is some cut through through traffic in the neighborhood. I try to visit these sites when I have them three times at different times of the day to see what the traffic flow is, and there is some cut through traffic. But it's governed more by the configuration of Harrodsburg Road than it is by the configuration of Clay's Mill Road because coming out here at McCubbing, you can make a left turn. There's a sanctuary point in the middle of the median marked for people turning left out of McCubbin onto Harrodsburg Road, so they can pull across these two lanes, get in that sanctuary area, which is right about here, and turn left. Of course, you can turn right. And traffic on Harrodsburg Road has a left turn lane coming into McCubbin as well. So that's a full-service intersection right there. and there is traffic that comes through down here to go on down south on Clay's Mill Road that way. That is not the result of the activity on this property. That's a result of the way the intersection is configured on Harrodsburg Road, and that's under the control of the state because it's a state-operated highway. I'm going to take my finger off this. I want to show you a couple pictures of our sight distance because we have excellent sight distance at our full location. This is a picture. I'm in my car, and it's a sedan. It's not an SUV or a big pickup truck. It's a sedan. And I'm sitting at our intersection, our curb cut on Clay's Mill Road. and from our curb cut sitting in my car you can see all the way down to the intersection of Harrodsburg Road and Clay's Mill Road these are the lights on Clay's Mill entering Harrodsburg, you can see they're red, these are the lights on Harrodsburg Road, they're not on Clay's Mill there's one on Harrodsburg, those are almost always green, they're green in this picture but you can see at this time those lights are red this car right here this car right here is on harrodsburg road it is sitting in the left turn lane on harrodsburg road waiting to turn left onto clays mill road this by the way is the across harrodsburg road i think that's the signage for the Bluegrass Care Navigators, which is on the other side of Harrodsburg Road. This in the background is the Lexington Clinic sports medicine facility, also on the other side of Harrodsburg Road. But my point in this picture is that at our intersection, you can see all the way down Clay's Mill to the light at Harrodsburg Road. And you can see that this car is stopped, this is on Harrisburg Road, you can see whether or not there is any traffic on that stretch of Clay's Mill Road at all or not. This time it happened to be not. The light was red, that car was stopped, this Clay's Mill was totally open at this point. These cars are waiting to go toward downtown on Clay's Mill. They're waiting for the light. So you have excellent visibility both toward Clay's Mill at our intersection this this intersection here is the one for the physical therapy center just to the north of us this is not the intersection with the curb cut we're talking about we go to the next picture this is at the same location I'm in my car looking at same location the other picture was taken we're looking the other way on Clay's Mill Road you You can see right here at this point it's four lanes. Here it's one lane going toward downtown but still two lanes going outbound on Clay's Mill Road. We have excellent site visibility, that's about 100 yards or so, down to past the point where the left turn lane starts on Clay's Mill to turn left onto Reed Lane, which goes over to Lafayette High School. So we have excellent visibility both directions out of the curb cut on our property. Now going to the next picture, this is McCubbick. This explains why there's a sign, again I'm in my car, I'm looking toward downtown on Clay's Mill Road, but there's a sign on McCubbick that says no left turn on the Clay's Mill Road. picture explains why and that's because there is a little crest in the hill and you cannot see down to the light all the way from from McCubbin I think when I pulled out a little further I could see the traffic signals but I couldn't see the tops of the cars coming toward me on Clay's Mill Road so that explains why there's a no left turn sign here at McCubbin and why there has never been a a no left turn sign out of Chase Bank's entrance point onto Clay's Mill Road. The other thing about traffic relates to our development plan as well. My clients are not trying to maximize the use on this property. If they wanted to maximize the use on this property, they could put a much bigger building on this property without even getting a zone change. We have a building which is, what, 2,200, 2,300 square feet on a lot that is 10 times that large. Our lot coverage is less than one-tenth. It's less than 0.1. It's like 0.99 lot coverage. In the P1 zone, we're located in your lot coverage can be 35%. We're less than 10%. Now, the floor area is even a bigger difference in the existing P1 zone. We have a floor area ratio, which is the same as our lot coverage, which is less than 0.1. In the P1 zone, you can do a lot coverage of 1.3, 1.3, which is 13 times the size of a building that we have on this building right now. So under the existing P1 zone, we could build a building at least 10 times the size of what we have. We might have a height thing. We might not be able to go 1.3. We could probably go at least one on this one. we could build a much much bigger building which as the buildings get bigger they have heavy traffic generation one example i think of is the baptist health facilities on nicholasville road south of jesseline and southland drive they have facilities on both sides of the street but the one behind the old rector hayden on that side of nicholasville road i think is a two-story building with a parking lot that's four times the size of the parking that we have now very busy in the morning doctor's offices have very busy very high traffic turnover very busy and but we're not doing that because we are keeping the existing building we're keeping the scale and massing of the existing building we're not trying to put as much on this building as we can and the The corollary of that is by not building a huge building on this, even in the existing zone, we are keeping the traffic down on this because it's the size of the building, number of offices, number of businesses in the building, number of restaurants, which generates the traffic. We will have one restaurant serving breakfast, brunch, and lunch that does not serve in the afternoon we'll have a vastly improved traffic situation on the in the afternoon if they ever wanted to tear this building down and increase it they'd have to come back to you with a revised development plan to look at it again i would add that chad and jeremy waited on this until they saw what access was going to be left after the state i think it was a state project that widened clays mill road state just spent millions of dollars on the clays mill road project and they left the entrances as the way you saw them on this without restrictions on right or left turns in and out so i think that's an important both safety feature for fire access use for solid waste coming in and out and I think it works well because it has good visibility and one reason it works well is because we're not trying to maximize the amount of development or amount of building that we have on this property. I'll just conclude we'd be happy to answer any questions but again I like this project so much because they're keeping the existing building and to be honest about it they're keeping the possibility that well we we hope this the restaurant we have is here for 50 years but if it's not here for 50 years they're retaining the possibility of using this as a bank eight years and several months from now because they're keeping the bank building intact and by doing that they're keeping the building which is to scale of the neighborhood intact as well and not building this this lot out as much as they could build it out so the staff has mentioned to you that we're providing a low intensity commercial use for this property there was a restaurant next door previously with a drive-through facility we're providing a neighborhood sized and a neighborhood oriented use reusing this existing building so we i didn't go into the place builder because mr crumb had gone through that we totally agree with the staff's conclusions on that we agree with the staff recommendation on your development plan and we'd be happy to answer any questions you all might have The floor is open for questions for the applicant. Mr. Owens. Good day to you, Mr. Murphy. Just to clarify, and you may have mentioned it and I may have missed it, the access on Clay's Mill, is that full entrance, exit, access point? Yes, it is. Thank you. In the plans there, what was the discussion on the – is there a dumpster on the site currently? No, the bank used roll car Herbie's on it, and I think that's what we'd like to use. But since it's a restaurant use, I think solid waste is going to require us to use a dumpster. So the dumpster, that addition is the requirement from solid waste? Yes. And was there discussion with them on the, I guess, probably wasn't your first choice to go for an easement, but was there discussion on that location, was that from solid waste as well? I think we originally had it more into our property, but we've pushed it back to visually reduce the visual impact of that with the owners next door. Okay, thank you. And then the same question that I had sort of with staff, you have this sort of unusual for a restaurant, basically bank canopy over the drive-through. This is more of a curiosity. I imagine looking at that space that those three parking spaces could still be accommodated, pushing them back. Was there any particular logic or that was just because that space was there? Well, the space is there and it's configured the way it is. we've put I think after we filed our initial development plan we've had added the wheel stops on that to to prevent people from driving through those lanes they would just be a parking space at this point. Thank You Mr. Murphy. Mr. Murphy thank you. Okay this is time for citizens comments. I do know we had a person from a neighborhood association that wanted to speak if i'm not mistaken and we have granite you ever requested eight minutes correct thank you step up to the podium if we could get oh okay you're passing it out it's a crummy map um we may want to put up the one that that was shown earlier with the streets on it i just wanted you all to be able to orient yourself as i talk about traffic on clays mill road that's the whole reason for the map shall i go ahead and introduce myself while you're doing that and then start my remarks when you all can really focus on me so i'm lynn flynn i live at 518 spring hill drive and i'm speaking on behalf of the piccadome neighborhood association this afternoon we really appreciate the opportunity to share our concerns with you all pna includes homes on both sides of clay's mill road and the streets intersecting with clay's mill stretching all the way from rosemont and lane allen to the intersection of clay's mill and harrodsburg the pna board is very pleased with an opportunity to use the vacant property at 1617 clay's mill road productively we would like to see that property used productively and not vacant however we're extremely concerned about the impact of a breakfast restaurant with a drive-through on traffic flow and safety on clays mill road during the morning which by the way is our busiest time of day on clays mill road it's also going to affect the block of mccubbing that goes beside the the restaurant and the neighborhood streets and also harrodsburg road lexington just completed a major year-long project to improve clays mill road that we just heard about millions of dollars improving traffic flow and safety bicycle paths sidewalks wonderful stuff it would be a shame to add a development that's going to negatively impact traffic flow and safety now our primary concern is the drive-through i might not be talking to you this afternoon if there wasn't a drive-through traffic on clay's mill varies dramatically at different times of day due to rush hours and the impact of school traffic when school starts and dismisses there are three schools that impact traffic on clay's mill within two to three blocks of the proposed development and the little map that you have shows those schools. Picadome elementary starts at 7 45, Lafayette high school and SCAPA start at 8 25. The very very worst time of day for Clay's Mill road traffic is the morning rush hour when folks are heading downtown into UK and the neighborhood schools are starting their day. I've been watching the traffic on Clay's Mill since school began last wednesday and here's a summary of what i've learned traffic begins backing up on clay's mill from the traffic light where clay's mill runs into harrodsburg road at about 7 30. sometime between 7 30 and 7 45 traffic backs up from that light to the proposed site of the breakfast restaurant and pretty well stays backed up past that site until around 8 30. at times the back up stretches for four blocks solidly back to reed lane some outbound traffic on clay's mill is heavy when the light where clay's mill runs into harrodsburg turns green so there will be a little rush there will be a big rush in some cases of traffic down that raceway of two lanes clay's mill is four lanes at this point and both lanes are busy outbound traffic backs up waiting to turn left on Spring Hill Drive especially, but on other neighborhood streets as well. It's not unusual for the line of waiting traffic to stretch back to Harrodsburg Road. Now we're going to talk about the little block of McCubbing that goes beside the proposed restaurant. There's a steady stream of traffic going in both directions on that short block, starting before 8 and continuing at least until 8.30 or so. At times, the whole block is full of waiting cars, potentially in both directions, usually not at the same time but it's in both directions that they back up and occasionally a turning car will block clay's mill as a side note many of the cars that travel from harrodsburg road to clay's mill ignore the right turn only sign and go straight or turn left on clay's mill one day it was three four seven i was watching and it was three four seven this is the site of accidents and others are going to talk about that school buses turn onto spring hill drive from both directions on clay's mill and often have trouble making the turn and that's a further delay at that area usually things have calmed down by about 8 40. let's see 7 30 to 8 40 those are kind of important hours for a breakfast and brunch restaurant particularly one with the drive-through trying to catch the downtown traffic under the current development plan for the proposed restaurant they'll be using the two existing entrances and exits we've already talked about this one on mccubbing and one on clay's mill because of the traffic backup on clay's mill and the steady stream of traffic on mccubbing it will be difficult to get into the restaurant when driving toward town and the entering traffic will likely add to the backup on clay's mill no matter which entrance they use getting out of the restaurant will be even more problematic and potentially dangerous once the driver gets their food if they want to continue the way toward town as pointed out you can turn right on mccubbing and right on harrodsburg road and unless mccubbing is backed up and harrisburg road are backed up that will happen pretty expeditiously they are sometimes backed up so that's the best option unfortunately they can also try to turn left on clay's mill from the restaurant's clay's mill exit this will be extremely difficult to do across two lanes of outbound traffic with no median and no plate no safe haven is that what you called it mr murphy it will also be dangerous and they're going to be they're going to be trying to pull into a parking lot. They can also exit onto McCubbing and turn right onto Clay's Mill O, or they can turn left onto Clay's Mill from there because that's what they do, sign or no sign. The closest pedestrian crosswalks on Clay's Mill Road are half a mile from the proposed site in either direction, down to Rosemont and down to Waller Avenue in the opposite direction. It really isn't safe to cross Clay's Mill on foot during peak traffic hours, so this will limit neighborhood customers for for the restaurant during that time period. Speaking of pedestrians, adding more traffic to Clay's Mill Road is going to be an issue for the students who regularly cross Clay's Mill to and from Lafayette, and there are pedestrian accidents for that too, and for the kids walking on Clay's Mill to get to Piccadome. P1 is an appropriate zone for this property. Banks and other professional offices have a relatively low volume of traffic spread throughout the day and they're often not open until nine or nine o'clock or later when the rush hour and school traffic is cleared clay's mill can accommodate this traffic pattern a breakfast and brunch restaurant with a drive-through is among the very worst potential uses for this property in terms of traffic flow and more importantly traffic and pedestrian safety the impact of the traffic as i said is going to is going to is going to have an impact on the whole area and it's going to affect not only the neighborhoods but the folks commuting the parents bringing their kids to drop them off at the elementary school in scapa and those inexperienced drivers who are driving into lafayette to park their cars um i want to close by thanking traffic engineering and other lexington divisions and the applicant who have worked hard to identify engineering options that could improve traffic and pedestrian safety if this development is approved unfortunately we look we heard the very good reasons why these engineering options are not feasible. My question is, if we can't make this development safer, is it the right development for this site? Once again, I want to thank you for giving us the time to talk with you about this. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak from the public? If so, please approach the podium and state your name. Thank you very much for this opportunity to voice my opinion about these plans. My name is Steve Davis. I'm a resident at 511 Woodbine. My family has lived there since 2014. I'd like to speak from experience. I appreciate the expertise that the previous witnesses have brought to the table, and I've listened very carefully to their reasoning. But I find it conflicts with my own lived experience. I'll start with this morning. I take the bus to work every day. I walk by that property every day to get to the bus stop. It's adjacent to the property. As I crossed Clay's Mill, which is not a safe crossing on any given day, I keep an eye on where McCubbin connects to Clay's Mill because there is that no turn sign. Three cars ignored it in the two minutes it took to get from Clay's Mill to the other side of McCubbin. That kind of negligence is pretty much the norm at that intersection. And it's caused a good degree of financial harm and physical harm to my family, and I'd like to explain why. In May of 2017, my wife was driving down Clay's Mill, and a high school student ignored that sign, and she hit him and T-boned our Subaru. It flipped his car, and it totaled our car. The car's replaceable. Insurance picked it up. No big deal. But my wife's wrist is not. She's a musician. She directs the old music choir, and she used to direct the choir at Woodland Christian Church for 10 years. She also teaches voice lessons in her home. In order for her to teach voice lessons, she needs to use her hands to play piano. If she picks up a grocery bag the wrong way, her wrist, an injury from this accident, is aggravated, and it's difficult for her to play piano. That's a direct result of people ignoring this sign at this intersection. In March of this year, I was walking my daughter to school. She goes to Picadome. She's a third grader. walker there every day. I was hit on a crosswalk on the covering and ended up on the hood of a car, which then drove off. Thankfully, the car wasn't going fast enough to permanently injure me, but, you know, had I not been as tall as I am, had I been a kid crossing that street, they would have gone right under the wheels of that car. So there's a lot of problems with the traffic pattern at McCubbing. And this restaurant, while I appreciate all of the care and thought that the staff and the legal representative of the business owner has put into this, it doesn't take into account the lived reality of how dangerous this intersection is. It's just going to increase the volume of traffic at a very, very precarious area. There are four schools less than 1,500 feet from this intersection. There are a number of my daughter's classmates who live across Harrodsburg, who have to cross Harrodsburg and then cross Clay's Mill. And the easiest way to get to Picadome is through that route. So you're going to be placing more cars in their way. You know, and I'll keep my comments brief. This notion that this is a problem that's going to be solved with signage, I'm sorry, this does not jive with reality. If people are willing to ignore a city sign, a sign that a business owner puts up is absolutely irrelevant. So I'm just going to keep my comments short there, and I just wanted to add that bit of personal experience. Thank you. Thank you very much. Is there any other citizen comment this afternoon? Hello, thank you. My name is Charles Thompson. I have lived at 531 McCubbing, which is within 500 feet of the proposed business, for 35 years. As to traffic generated by the bank, having banked there until they closed more than 30 years, the traffic it generated was negligible at all times of day. So comparing what the restaurant's going to do to that bank is a red herring. There is some talk of walkability. That is not realistic. I walk a lot. I have crossed Clay's Mill and Harrodsburg without a light or any other help many times. And no matter how patient you are, it is scary. And so this is not a restaurant to which it will be very easy to walk. because in the neighborhood circle that the proposal shows, anyone who tries to walk to it from within that circle will have to cross either Harrodsburg or Clay's Mill. And the only way to do it, if you want to get a light, is to walk an extra mile down to Rosemont or up to Waller. Finally, after 35 years of negotiating the intersection of Harrodsburg, of Clay's Mill and McCubbing, I would say that it doesn't strike me as very likely that it will be safer to turn left onto Clay's Mill out of that driveway of the restaurant than it is to do it 100 feet away from cubbing drive those pictures put the best possible light on it i think it's going to be a dangerous situation if it's allowed so thank you thank you Hello. Can you hear me? My name is Mary Cheney Ringo. Our family moved into our home on McCullough Drive 71 years ago, and we have observed many changes to the landscape in this neighborhood. Having a new neighborhood restaurant would be another of those changes, and not necessarily a negative one. However, it will bring more traffic to an already visible heavy traffic situation. There are several areas that need traffic calming measures. These three areas are the intersection at McCubbing and Harrisburg Road, the intersection of McCubbing and Clay's Mill, and the traffic on McCubbing Drive. Regarding the two intersections, it is common knowledge that they have had many collisions. I have exported collision history data from the website crashinformationkentucky.com to an Excel spreadsheet for the dates of August 22, 2013 through August 22, 2023. They show McCubbing has been involved in 133 collisions. I have copies of this with me if you would like to see them. In addition, the current signage of the McCubbing Drive-Claes Mill Road intersection is restrictive because it directs that you can only make right turns from both directions. However, it has been observed that these signs are insufficient and frequently ignored. McCubbin Drive is a local residential street, but is frequently used by traffic as a cut-through to avoid streets whose primary function is to accommodate through traffic. This causes traffic congestion, especially during peak hours. Traffic traveling on the Cubbing is often above the 25 miles per hour speed limit, including school buses. The speed limit needs to be enforced for the safety of children playing near the street and for residents backing out of their driveways. It is important to install traffic calming measures. Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Amy Clark, and I live halfway across town in a neighborhood about 10 years older than Pecadoms here today. I don't want to repeat about personal experiences of the traffic. I would encourage you to consider that there's no compelling need for a zone change here. The applicant willingly contracted with a deed that forbids one of the 60-odd uses that are principal uses in P1. Any of the others are available to them. And this is a corridor, a larger corridor, and an immediate neighborhood that is abounding, is growing in health professional uses. In fact, the applicant themselves, they appear to have the same personal ownership in the land immediately adjacent. It's a different LLC, but the corporate, the personal names associated with the corporate records are the same. So the applicant here today had bought that property, the person, in 2011, built a big building to do retail. That is curiously already B1, and probably because there was a non-conforming business use. and many years ago it seemed that the planning commission decided if they put it under a B1 zone they could better govern it. So this applicant in 2011 made a retail size building. It was a mattress store, but now it's a physical therapy office. Right across the street is Turfland, Lexington Clinic. I don't even need to enumerate. you know that this is an area with a need and a constant growth in medical office building, contrary to the larger community, I guess. Consider this is a zone change. It's not just a project you're approving. It would be lovely if you could just wink for a few years and say, serve some coffee and donuts and then go back to being a bank. But this is a zone change. and it allows, there are no restrictions offered to the zoning, conditional zoning restrictions. Will the lot size of the subject property, which is about two-thirds of an acre, substantially constrain the intensity of use if it becomes something else, something different later, a different building, different development? Not necessarily, because there is that adjoining B1 property, so together they have almost a net acre and that offers flexibility to a greater extent. Even things like private easements to have shared access and circulation are concerning. If there were shared access and circulation, that would open it up to access with the adjacent B1 that is onto Harrodsburg itself. The comprehensive plan urges that – I'm sorry, I need to hand out the letter. Okay. And I would ask you to look at the comprehensive plan policies that I think justify the denial of this zone change, and in particular, the update to the policy about auto-intensive uses. This is highly auto-intensive. The vehicle use area is six and a half times as great as the building area, the gross building area. And I thank you for the time. Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to speak? Okay. Mr. Murphy. Thank you very much. We are in a situation which does have traffic issues. There's no doubt about that. We're not contesting that Ms. Flynn said that it backs up at certain times. If it does, when it backs up, our customers won't be able to turn left on Clay's Mill Road because it will be backed up and that won't be possible. There's been a lot of discussion about the cut-through traffic on McCubbing Drive. We don't have any control over the cut-through traffic on McCubbing. That is being generated by the configuration at Harrodsburg Road, which allows full lefts in coming down away from town on Harrodsburg Road into McCubbing and allows full lefts out from McCubbing onto Harrodsburg Road, allowing cut-through traffic to go through. Delta Drive on the other side is not lined up with McCubbing to further complicate the situation. The state is, as I understand, is in control of Harrodsburg Road at that point. And if the state wanted to cut out, cut through traffic on McCubbin Drive, they have the ability to do so. The state just spent millions of dollars on the Clay's Mill Road project. As I mentioned, my clients waited until it was done to see what access the state would continue to allow them. Our access point on Clay's Mill Road is a little different. It's a little further back because the state widened Clay's Mill Road to four lanes at that point. It's a little farther back, but they left the full service entrance from this property onto Clay's Mill Road. I think they did it because, as I showed you, we have excellent sight vision both ways down to the left and to the right along Clay's Mill Road. We still have our one access point on McCubbing, which we need for the fire trucks to be able to pull in off Clay's Mill and get out of McCubbing. We certainly regret accidents which have occurred here in the past and things that have happened to people. One accident is one accident too many. The state recently spent I don't know how many million dollars on this project. And I am confident that the result of this project, Clay's Mill Road is now safer than it was before. It has much better visibility, but has wider lanes. It has bicycle, separate bicycle lanes, I think, on both sides of it now. And I think the result of the project is a safer situation on Clays Mill Road. We don't have control over the situation at McCubbing and Harrodsburg Road. We don't have control over the situation at McCubbin and Clay's Mill Road either. But I think the answer for this is not to require this to be kept or to take an action which would deny a zone change. And we'd have either a choice. Essentially, Chad is a commercial real estate broker in Lexington with NAI Isaac. his partner jeremy is a doctor now between the two of them they thought they could get tenants in here through he's chad is an excellent well-known commercial real estate agent and his partner the doctor knows the doctors they haven't been able to get anybody in here for three years except for the temporary covid testing center and that's because of the restrictions, the most logical things here, as everybody knows, is a bank. We can't do a financial institution here for eight and a half more years. I don't think the answer is to turn down a zone change and potentially keep this building vacant for another eight and a half years. A vacant building is not good for a neighborhood. And the answer is not, as I think Ms. Clark was suggesting, to tear our building down, tear down the physical therapy building, and redevelop this as medical offices, because as she mentions, there are medical offices in the area. If you want to have a heavy traffic generator, even in P1, we're allowed to do a 1.3 floor area ratio. Right now, we have a 0.1 floor area ratio, one-thirteenth of what's allowed on this property in P1. B1, there's no limit on it, on floor area ratio. Using this as a big medical office building would greatly increase the traffic generation on this property, well, way over above anything this breakfast brunch restaurant is going to be generating on the property. We're going to have to live with the traffic situation out there, too. If it backs up, as I said, on Clay's Mill, our customers aren't going to be able to make a left there. If it comes out at noon, they might be able to make it. They can probably make a left there because traffic stops at Harrodsburg Road and leaves a big gap for people to get in and out. Again, I think we're doing the best possible development here. We're doing a low-intensity commercial use. We're using a building which takes up one-third of the ground coverage that's allowed even in the existing zone, one-thirteenth of the floor area which is allowed in the existing zone, and that alone is going to keep the traffic down. We appreciate your consideration of this. We hope you'll vote in favor of approval. We do agree with the staff conditions on the development plan. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Murphy. Yes, ma'am, I was going to ask any citizens would like to rebut. I was going to ask the neighborhood. I hold Mr. Fulkert in the greatest personal esteem. And I do agree, as an Isaac vice president, after. Isaac advertises this property for lease for $100,000 a year triple net. That means no further contribution of the investor. That would seem to be minimal investment in this adaptive reuse for maximal return. That's something you can allow if it's right for the community. But I would question whether $100,000 triple net is going to give you the kind of traffic that you want. Second, approving a zone change here introduces a nonconformity, the very same nonconformity that you didn't allow in a recent zone change hearing as a variance. The building is 40 and 60 feet distant from the maximum 20 foot setback, even if you count the canopy, it doesn't make it to the maximum permitted building setback. So what you're doing is you're saying yes this can be B1, it can have a drive-through encircling the property, enormous amount of vehicular area, and none of this is conducive to calming or controlling traffic which the applicant says is really outside his control. can control it but not allowing a use that would seem to target traffic enough for a hundred thousand a year. Thank you. Is there anyone else? Okay. Traffic just came up a lot, so Mr. Martin or Mr. Crum, do you want to step up or traffic will you step in? We have a representative from Traffic Engineering here. Okay. Thank you all. My name is David Filiatram with the Division of Traffic Engineering. And the access is something that we briefly talked about at the subdivision committee, and that was one of my goals after we left that committee, just to approach the applicant. And again, my idea, the building's already there, the site's as it is, So if this was all brand new, there would be a whole different discussion. We could have a lot more flexibility. But generally when the site's present, the accesses are present, we more so deal with what we have. And my goal was to reduce conflict points, to attempt to reduce conflict points by potentially eliminating a left end at that access point on Clay's Mill. But as the applicant brought up and Tom mentioned earlier, there are practical issues with that given waste and fires limitations on circumnavigating the site. It's a somewhat cramped site even given the building size. So given those issues, that limits us somewhat. And when speaking with some of the members of the public as well, there are other things. I know when McCubbin Drive, it's considered a cut through. and there are things that the city itself we can look at and try to attempt to mitigate those issues outside of this process. That's something I mentioned to one of the citizens called that we'd be willing to look at that outside of just this process. That's something that we do often in different locations and that's something we can do here as well. Thank you. We've got a question. Mr. Michler. Yeah, just in regards to that sort of comment here, because we heard a lot of comments on McCubbin Drive. And when we're looking at this, you know, we are looking at the fact that there are, as the neighborhood residents put in, there's three schools in the area. We're looking at trying to zone for neighborhood business to be here. And we have a quote-unquote road improvement, which really is a road widening, which while it puts sidewalks at the edge of a now four-lane road, it did not do a very good job of making it really actually pedestrian-friendly in the sense that it didn't improve accessibility. accessibility to the neighborhoods to these things. And I think that it would be important for traffic to meet with the neighbors and get more of these stories because when I'm looking at this, this does not look like a pedestrian improvements that were made by this road widening. Yeah, and I think it's somewhat of an old, like, Clay's Mill Road, the widening's been around for many years as far as the process of getting to that point. The city's currently developing a complete street process or a complete streets policy. So I think going in the future, there might be design choices that are different than maybe that was chosen here. but those are things that you know but there are again interim mitigating things we can try to look at kind of like tom mentioned in some instances before when when you just uh for that right turn that people say that gets ignored a lot of you know there is no physical infrastructure to to limit that and that's sometimes how we you know that's sometimes the decisions we come to is you really need that physical infrastructure and that's potentially something we can again outside of this process here in planning that traffic engineering can look at thank you okay Yes. David, so with regard to the traffic light, can you control the time frame or whatever? Would that make any difference? Yeah, we can control pretty much any aspect of that light. And do you think it's been adjusted as schools come in and all those kinds of things? I mean, do you all look at the timing? Typically we try to because there's actually the exit of Picadome is actually signalized as well. So most of the time I've not looked at this particular intersection. I can get both our signal section. But typically we do have alternate timing patterns based on when school is in and out of session. And if this were approved and things like that, would you all be on top of following it to see how it affects things? We certainly can. That's a different section, but that's certainly, I was actually the manager of that section in years past, so I can speak with them and take a fresh look at this, given the, I mean, Clay's Mill improvements are only about eight months old themselves, so I'm sure they need to re-examine the corridor. And with your experience, do you think it could make a difference with traffic? Potentially. Of course, Harrodsburg Road is generally the primary, the ingress is generally a primary concern as far as just traffic itself, but if there are accommodations that need to be made to further help pedestrian crossing things like that we that's certainly something we can look at yeah absolutely thank you question is there any sort of traffic calming at McCubbing and Clay's Mill right now or does the Clay's Mill traffic just go straight through Not currently, yes. So traffic calming, the general sense of what we do in traffic engineering is generally limited to local roads. So anything greater, collector and greater, typical traffic calming projects we don't apply. Generally there would be design choices in larger projects that would help limit the speed of traffic. I'll just wonder because it seems like with nothing there or with something there, that's an issue. So it seems like something more needs to happen with that intersection regardless of what's decided today. I think that's fair. I know the state has looked at various points along Harrodsburg Road. Clay's Mill is actually a city street, so that would be up to us to determine improvements. So Clay's Mill is a city street? Correct, yes. But the project was funded by the state? It was funded through SLX, which is federal dollars. But it was administered and actually overseen by the city. So it was actually a city project, just to clarify that. Okay. Because we were, okay. Thank you. Yes, sir. Would it be feasible to put the sort of pedestrian crossing on Clay's Mill at McCubbins that would be like the one at Transylvania University where there's flashing lights? It would have to be pretty significant. We'd have to look at there's formal federal standards as far as when particular pedestrian crossing improvements are appropriate. So we'd have to look at ADT, the traffic speeds, the amount of pedestrians utilizing it, and then there would have to be probably, I would say, a pretty significant infrastructure project to slow speeds prior to entering the intersection. So while it's certainly possible, it wouldn't be something we would ever just slap in there as far as just a crossing. So it would take a decent amount of planning and design to get something like that put in. How long does something like that take? Trying to think of what other instances where we've done, put it on a street with a four-lane cross section is a little atypical. I know the one you mentioned on Transylvania, that's been there quite some time. I'd hate to put a timeline on it. And we'd have to identify funding as well. So it could take a couple years if that's something that people wanted. But initially we would have to probably take three months to get the data and then to identify what improvements would be sufficient given the federal standards. I think the data on Broadway involved people getting hit by cars and that's what got attention and got things done That one's been there since I moved to Lexington in 2005 so that one's been there some time That's probably been there, what, five years maybe? I graduated in 2008 They made improvements to it a number of years ago but the crossing itself has been there for a number of years I talked to the Transylvania representative who initially put that in. Thank you. Okay. Thanks, David. I have a question. Mr. Murphy, please. If I recall, during subdivision committee, you couldn't disclose whom the restaurant is or anything like that. And I can't remember if we asked how much volume you anticipated in the drive-thru and in the restaurant. Do you all have some estimations on your volume? Looking at Chad, we do not know what the estimates of that are. the uh it's a it's a new concept i think a little different than some of the other brunch restaurants here in town so they don't have a good feel for that either on it we don't think it's going to be obviously we're building this as a dine-in destination we have 40 seats inside the building we have 16 seats outside the building so they're counting on this to be a dine-in destination but restaurants like that do need a drive-through at this point i there's a story yesterday in the paper about ramsay's moving into the great acres and they do have a drive-through and they said it's because of the need for a drive-through after covid that the carry out has picked up some on that one I would suspect it's similar to that, but we don't know. And as I said, they're under a nondisclosure agreement right now. And your time that you'll be open and closed, if you're all determined? Well, they anticipated 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. on that. Please don't hold us to that, but that's what we've been told they anticipate there. Thank you. Fire stepped up. Fire, do you have any comments? Are you fine? If you all have any questions for me, Greg Lingle, Division of Fire. I think just from what I heard, what the resident said is true. I'm familiar with this area. I wasn't at subdivision meetings, so I wasn't aware that the access point, the Clay's Mill, was even a talking point until just a few days ago. So, of course, when we're looking at this, we're looking at a development plan, not a zone change. So we do support that access being open. And I think they explained the reason and why, because I don't want our men or women parking their truck there trying to get their aid and not have a spot to pull off of. So that's kind of our view. Okay. If you've got anything else. All right. Any questions for fire right now? No. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Okay. I'll close this portion out and bring it back to the commission. I know we have a few questions, concerns. It's not a question, just a comment, because I've changed my thinking after listening to the Neighborhood Association representative. of um but the first thing i want to say is i would like to support the notion that this is not a safe area and anything that can be done to make traffic safety in this area whatever measures can be employed needs to be done irrespective of what happens with this zone change um i've been sitting here thinking about the other votes that i've made on drive-through restaurants in areas with lots of traffic and i'm having a hard time with this vote because i really appreciate what you are trying to do about saving the building i think it's important to save it if you didn't have a drive-through on it i'd be voting for it in a heartbeat but i will have to confess i'm the queen of cut-throughs this area is one of my favorite cut-throughs and i've sat over there in traffic i I try not to go over there during those hours that you mentioned. And to put a drive-through in an area that already has major traffic problems just doesn't make sense to me. I know you need it for your business model, and I'm sorry, but I feel like I have to vote against this proposal for consistency with the position that we've taken on other drive-throughs. Mr. Davis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I mean, I certainly agree with Commissioner Wirth. I think it's a difficult site. I can appreciate very much the reuse of the building. I think the plan, Mr. Barrett, is really well done, well thought out. I have a lot of personal experience on Clay's Mill, Harrodsburg, McCubbing. And for me, I mean, to say that the plan features extensive connections to several pedestrian networks and neighborhoods, I have a very hard time with that. I think it was zone P1 for a reason, being a breakfast-oriented, brunch-oriented facility with a drive-through. And, again, I can appreciate the stacking, but I just can't support it at this time. The floor is open, guys and ladies. For a motion of some sort. I can't make that, so. Ms. Worth. What's the terminology? Refusal, rejection? Yeah. She wants to make a motion of disapproval. Decline. You need findings. You need findings, yeah. Findings? Mm-hmm. Do you have findings? Nope. Okay. We'll need to take a break. All right. We need to take a recess. Can I just raise one point? Yes, sir. Just for a moment. Somebody wants to make a different motion. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. But, yes, go ahead, Mr. Poe. I mean, I'm not proposing to make a different motion, but I'd like to just reflect on the issue of this being a P1 zone and the current state of the demand for office space. You know, I think the difficulty of, yeah, we could, you know, they could build, they could expand the size of the structure there dramatically and make something that might seem out of scale for the next 20, 30 years. Eventually, maybe it wouldn't seem out of scale, but how are they going to do that in a P1 zone? It's just not going to happen right now. So, you know, the difficulty of getting that property occupied productively is enormous. And for me, the challenge here really is a complete failure to prioritize pedestrian and bicycle transportation. and I would be willing to support this proposal if there were a conditional element that required the kind of pedestrian crossings that we see on Broadway because I think then it would become a legitimate neighborhood function but I think the argument that it's creating a neighborhood function right now is a little bit specious because really if it does attract people to walk over there, it's going to create a tragic scenario. And so I just wanted to bring that up. I think we need to occupy properties and use them when they're important pieces of property in dense areas. But how do we do that in this case? This is a question for staff. How can we make or request that from an applicant when this is a city road? Does Transylvania do their piece, or was that a tie-in with the city's money? South Broadway is a state road, so I would assume that the state made those improvements in coordination with the city. Because I'm looking at two sides of this road. I mean, their property is on, of course, their side for pedestrian access, but how are you going to get over Clay's Mill? They don't own that part. So why would they improve that part? Well, an applicant can make improvements to the public right-of-way. Along their frontage, it's often required by the Planning Commission, but you can also require them to make improvements to the public right-of-way in terms of a crossing. Okay. Safety purposes. It's David Flatcher again. The first aspect of that would need to see if it was appropriate for a crossing at that location, given the design factors, site distance, all those such things, and something that could take quite a considerable amount of time. So I don't know if it would be an appropriate... Generally, we have a clear idea of the improvements that need to be done and the viability of them before we require an applicant to fund something like that. So I don't know if that would be present at this time. I know David is still new to the process. There's difficulties in addressing the state highways, the main arterials. However, we can, through this process, help address the cut, I don't like to use this word, cut through, but the people that are utilizing McCubbin to get around traffic and to deal with congestion. We do that by asking for contributions to our traffic calming fund, which is a very small fund and can't keep up with demand. And we generally ask for a monetary contribution. There's a time limit on it. It has to be used by a certain time or it reverts to the property owner, the contributor. And we use that money to put in tables or pedestrian facilities or things that will calm traffic. We can constrict them. Like we did on Mitchell Avenue with the development at the spring site, they constricted the roadway. Now, we can do that to address the issue on McCubbin. But on the arterials under state control, that's going to take study and warrants and a certain level to be reached before they'll address that. No, I thought it was. No. It's not? Oh, they funded it, and I thought it was theirs. Yeah, okay. So we could. No. Oh, if it's not, then I think you could also ask for, as we've done in the past, a contribution as we've done towards traffic signals, for instance. That's a big contribution. but we've done that in other areas. Thank you. I don't know if it's from David or Tom or Tracy or the staff or who, but when Transylvania was first mentioned, I go across 4th Street all the time. There's a new pedestrian crossing there with what I'm going to call a table even. That's what I was envisioning when I first heard of Transylvania. That's obviously on a city street. Clay's Mill is much wider. I don't know if that's a possibility or not. But Mr. Murphy is getting up. Does he have a suggestion? I have a suggestion that we postpone this so we can explore some of these options. We're dealing with something we didn't create. Proposals are being made that we fund things that don't work, that we didn't we're not responsible for but we'd be happy to talk to them about seeing if there's some some solution to the issue that we have on this mr murphy help yeah okay yes mr murphy i appreciate that recommendation because i was sitting conferring with the chair and some other people up here that that seems to be a lot of ifs ands and buts about this traffic issue and some things that we don't know about and what have you and to my colleagues i think a postponement would be very much in order on this yes so i would be be open to a motion for a postponement mr chair if it's agreeable with you i would move that we postpone the clear optics llc zoning mass amendment first security national bank amendment development plan and the zone change mr chair postpone or continue well we could it depends if you want to postpone or if you continue if we continue we if we continue we don't have to go back over through the process again that's right we'd rather continue that's true continue yeah okay then i move i move that we continue this discussion pending later and contingency uh discussions related to the traffic provided by staff okay a second okay we got a motion that's why i was looking at mr murphy do you want it one month continuous two weeks they should have been we propose two months just to give us some time to think about and work through these issues Mr. Chairman, I would move whatever the date is that they have would be the date that we would postpone to. October 26th. October 26th. Okay. So we're doing a 60-day postponement until October 26th, 2023. I mean, excuse me, excuse me. Continuance. Continuance until October 26th, right? Okay. Right. any further discussions to that motion i just wanted to thank ms clark for her observations and her work on this because i think it helped at least for me to clarify my thinking okay thank you mr chairman i need a little bit of clarification we're continuing it but specifically what are we continuing it for in other words what are we expecting the staff to do in traffic and in other other things to bring to us at that time. I mean, just to continue it is one thing, but to continue it with specific, something solid that we can come back with. Won't the applicant work with staff? Won't the applicant be working with staff to come up with something between themselves in some fashion or not? I'm asking the question, I guess. The conversation was about the pedestrian safety. so the applicant has agreed to go back work with staff on figuring out if there's any other way they can figure out a better way for the pedestrian safety at their location and can I add one other thing off the safety but the traffic volume I don't know if you would be able to have this in two months but if you could give us a better idea of what the volume through there would be I think that would be really helpful. Thank you. Before, hold on. I just want to say, Ms. Worth, if it's a new company, that's going to be impossible to come up with. That's awesome. That's going up and down. I don't know how much stock I'm with. We'll see what we can come up with. Maybe you won't have any. Okay. Fine. All right. Are you okay with that? I'm okay. We had a second by Ms. Worth. Mr. Owens. Hmm? How did Mike Owens? Whatever. All right, we have a motion and a second by Mr. Owens. Yes sir. Any further discussion to that motion? No, I'm good. I know you weren't paying attention. That's why you said it like that. We are working now? Yes. Okay, please vote via Granicus. Okay. Okay. You got it, Mr. No, see, he's not working here. Yeah, she told me where I can vote on the floor. There we go. Yours not up. I'm not allowed to vote on this one. Okay. We're going to do a show of hands again because her computer is not working. So if you vote in favor of the 60-day continuance, please raise your right hand. Okay, motion passes unanimously. Thank you. And Ms. Worth, did you second the motion? Yeah, it was not Mr. Owens. They both did. Oh, Davis. But Mr. Owens hit the... Give it to Mr. Owens. He was fine. He was fine. Okay, Ms. Wade. Yes, thank you. Mr. Chair, Graham, I'd like to thank you for your comments as well. I found them very helpful as well. So thank you very much. And just for members of the audience, this item will appear back on the Planning Commission's agenda on Thursday, October 26th at 1.30 p.m. Same place. Yeah. Thank you. Mr. Chair, can I have staff? Does this have to go back to the Zoning Committee? Since it's already started a public hearing, we would normally not continue to discuss it outside of the public hearing setting. Okay, what I was thinking is if it went to the zoning committee, then if there were any other additional questions we would have, we could clean it up before it came back here. But okay, you got me. in terms of upcoming meetings for the planning commission although your agenda on page six indicates our meetings for september we do still have two meetings coming up next week one that you're not required to attend but we want to make sure that the public knows about it it's um the planning commission or the um public input meeting for the comprehensive plan and that's scheduled for Wednesday, August 30th from 3 to 7 p.m. That's going to be held at the Senior Center on Life Lane and again 3 to 7 p.m. that'll be an open meeting for the public to attend and comment on the comprehensive plan. And then we also have a work session on Thursday, August the 31st held in the Phoenix building at 1 30 for the Planning Commission that's it for us that it thank you very much thank you okay this meeting is adjourned