All this meeting to order. The subdivision meeting. Ready? We lost the gavel. Yes, we lost the gavel. So I'll be slapping the table. That works. You can use this. No, that does work, too. Okay. Yeah, that sounds more official than I'm slapping. Okay. Okay, are we ready? Let's go. Sorry about that. I just okay all right I'm not doing right here what am I doing wrong okay I can't speak okay there we go sorry about that So we're looking at our first plan. This is the Hart property at Greenbrier Estates, Unit 2J, Lots 10 and 11 amended. This is out in the Greenbrier neighborhood. Remember we came in and did some large duplexes, this being Winchester Road coming in, Bahama and then Briarcraft. We have a set of townhomes over here. We did a development plan a while back where we separated these two because they didn't want to have a common wall. And so now we're coming back in because this unit has been built and they didn't build it to the building line. So we're coming back in to show this building, pulling it off of the building line so that they have a little bit more of a side yard setback because they didn't want to have that one attached. The unit, this unit here, has put windows on the side, so we can't attach the other building to it. So that's why they're in to revise it. So as you can tell, we just have a couple conditions. We have engineering traffic. We have a note for building inspection, all buildings, paving signs, fences. That's a note that they've asked for us to add to all plans. addition of bearings and distances for lot 11 since we are moving the building further away from the line. We'd like to see the bearings and distances on that lot. And then denote the location of construction access to the property. So with that, I'll open it to you all to see if there's any other comments or questions. Any questions for staff? Okay. We have the applicant. Good morning. The only thing I'd like to add is that lot 10 is not a part of this plan. I want to make sure no one is expecting us to get a signature from that owner who's in a house and living there. Okay, then we're all good. All right. Okay. Any questions for the applicant? All right. I don't think there's any. Do we have any public comment? Okay. We'll bring you back to committee. Mr. Chair, Mrs. Chair, I'll move for recommendation and approval of Plan MJDP 24-84, for hard property with five noted conditions. Second. Frank got it? Yeah, second. Okay. With a comment, this is very good to have five conditions. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Good job. I may not continue that. Okay, oh well. Just take this while you got it, okay. All right, all those in favor? Aye. Okay, unanimous, thank you. Thank you. Let's see if I can do this. There we go. Maybe. Good morning. Well, maybe. The next case we're going to be looking at is the Sebastian property, MJDP 24-85, Sebastian property unit 3, located at 525 White Oak Trace. This property is located. it backs up to Lee's Town I was gonna say Newtown I knew that wasn't right Lee's Town this site is currently lot 77 which is being used as a detention basin which is kind of the primary question on the property with what's going to happen with the stormwater management. We have the standard sign-offs including engineering, traffic engineering, landscape examiners, addressing urban forester, Department of Environmental Quality, Black Ped, Green Space, Division of Fire, Division of Waste Management, and then Division of Water Quality's approval of capacity assurance program requirements, postal service, and then we have six additional conditions. Denote all buildings, paving, signs, fences, walls, and retaining walls that are depicted, described, or required on this development plan shall require separate review and building permit from Division of Building Inspection. Prior to construction, utilize standard site statistics box, clarify if there are significant trees on the subject property, include note listing the exact nature of the requested changes per article 21-7 D2 of the zoning ordinance, provide the planning commission, and then also a condition that the planning commission approves a waiver of article 6-4C for the lot frontage and sole access from an access easement, and then discuss relocation of stormwater management and easement conflicts. These townhomes don't, the townhomes face Leastown Road, but their access is from an access easement in the rear, so that's the waiver of Article 6-4. and then that's the primary thing on the waiver right? Well no the six units in the back there don't have frontage on a street a public street so they need permission from the planning commission to use an access easement as their frontage. And then to be clear this is currently a stormwater basin. Yes. So it is actively used right now for stormwater. So that's the last condition is to discuss relocation of the stormwater management area. And there's current easements related to that for stormwater and drainage easements. So the applicant has to work with engineering to provide documentation about where their stormwater management will be. And I think they're working towards that. I think that's EA partners as well. So we're recommending postponement at this time for mainly that issue. Okay, questions? Yeah, I just want to clarify. So what we're looking at is a request for some easements on some frontage and the solving of a stormwater problem. In order to take a stormwater retention area and add, I'm looking at this and I don't know if I'm seeing this correctly, it looks like 18 dwelling units plus two residential lots. 16 and 2? I think it's 18 and 2. 18 and 2? Yeah. Wow. If you all are able to work through that, that's quite an accomplishment to be able to take some land that is not being, that can be activated to provide much needed housing. So this is a really creative way to, if you all are able to work through on the technical side how to solve these problems, this is a really creative way to provide much needed dwelling units. So I hope you all are able to work through that. That's really creative and interesting. So I commend your work for trying to figure out how to do something like this. Any other questions for staff? If not, we can have the applicant. I've got my electronics. I know. Al Gross, EA Partners. Thanks, Bruce, for that introduction. This is an opportunity, and it's an opportunity to continue to develop some frontage on Leastown Road that Dennis Anderson has already developed. And to give you a little bit better picture than that etch-a-sketch up there, I'm going to show you a photograph of the site and then an overlay of that plan on an existing photograph that shows The development around it and then I'll get into why I'm really here Thank you. You can see the quality of the product that's being proposed. And if you've driven down Leastown Road any time lately, those things are pretty prominent in their look and their feel relative to street frontage. And that's what he's proposing to build. Now, they are townhome units, so you'll see that big structure right there contains four or five units, which is going to be replicated exactly. here, here, and here, and somewhat exactly back here, except you're going to lose one of the units inside the townhome structure. And you've got two single-family units that will go there. So I think it is an opportunity. I think it's a win for the community. I think it's a win for the streetscape. I've got two microphones now. the streetscape along Leastown Road. And that retention basin serves 12 acres. Downstream, which is this basin ultimately discharges underneath Leastown Road, goes downstream into a Masterson Station, and there's two or three other developments that are contiguous to Masterson Station. And the drainage way that this ultimately gets to in fairly quick fashion is over 2,200 acres. So you have a 2,200-acre watershed relatively close to you that is controlled and almost completely built out. And the opportunity now exists to take this facility that serves only 11 or 12 acres. The magnitude there is just obvious. and discharge it directly into the mainstream control that is close and have it provide the quantity control that's required for any new development or the addition of any impervious area. We've done this several times throughout the community. It's not that crazy an idea, even though I saw everybody's eyes kind of expand when staff introduced it. We've worked with, and it's purely a technical issue, and the release of easements also are purely technical. You can't release the easements unless you can find a responsible way to replace the facilities that are underneath them. It's not rocket science. It can be done. We've investigated it. We wouldn't even be here if we didn't think it can be done. We know it can be done. But we also know we have a process to go through with the Division of Engineering, a process that we've gone through many times in the past. And what I'm trying to accomplish today is I think this plan can be pushed forward to the Planning Commission from this body with a recommendation of approval. I don't see any reason to postpone this. It's pretty obvious what we're trying to do. Technically, we can either do it or we can't do it. We're very confident it can be done. And, again, we've worked through the Division of Engineering and any other division that wants to play a part in this. We're more than happy to engage them as well. You said there are a couple of examples where it's been done. Can you name those? Well, one is the Lexington Clinic recently. And there are others that I'm remiss in being able to call those up, but I can provide a list of those. But one of the most recent ones is the Lexington Clinic, where we eliminated a stormwater management facility, extended a large box culvert through their campus, and expanded their campus parking by some 85 or 90 spaces. and we worked with the neighborhood, the downstream neighborhood, the neighborhood adjacent to the clinic, worked with Big Elm Golf Course, and we had a FEMA amendment there too, so there was a federal involvement there that we accomplished. And we took about six houses out of a flood hazard area on, I can't think of the name of the street that's adjacent to it, Goodwin, Goodrich. So, you know, it takes a little work quantitatively and modeling and being able. It helps when all the unknowns are known. You've got development around it. You know exactly what you have in the sense of infrastructure. Exactly what you have in the sense of how much impervious area you've got and what the impact is of removing an impervious area, removing a small bit of, in the grand scheme of things, of impervious area. I can just add something, too. I'm Dick Murphy. I'm Dick Murphy, representing Dennis Anderson. Al's with us, and Dennis is over here today, too. There was another reason for doing this as well. In addition to providing some additional housing inside the urban service area, we were trying to improve the streetscape along Leastown Road as well. Al, if you could take those two loose sheets. I'm going to show the bottom two sheets. We have a couple photographs of you for the streetscape along Leastown Road. The bottom is what Dennis has built along Leastown Road. The top is what was there before he built. That was built by somebody else right next door to us. So we've been presenting, we think, a much more favorable facade along Leastown Road. You're looking at the fronts of our townhome units instead of looking at the backs and a wooden privacy fence along Leastown Road. What we have now is I'll go to the bottom picture first. This is an aerial photograph showing, and these are in the handouts you have. The bottom one here is showing an aerial. Here is the small basin we're asking to use over on the left-hand side. You can see our townhomes presenting themselves to Leastown Road. Above is the look you have driving up Leastown Road from this side, looking across our basin, you get the backs of a lot of these units in the rear. We'd like to replace those with the one I showed you on the first panel at the bottom. So we're trying to make this stretch of Leastown Road much more attractive. We found the opportunity of doing this since we feel we can use the regional water plan, Plan which we have now with all the other development that has has gone on up there rather than have a Small basin in each neighborhood like this so and as and as I'll mention We're hoping you'll recommend approval of this to send on we fully recognize we have a lot of work to do and we have number one or number two of your sign-offs is Division of engineering sign off on this so we know we have a lot of lot to do What we'd like to get this approved by you all though because it's going to take a lot of money And a lot of work and a lot of time to do the study we're going to do so we sort of like to have the approval of this concept of constructing these here Subject to sign off of the division of engineering we have to satisfy them we fully recognize that and fully we Al has done preliminary work on this, indicates this is feasible, but we know we've got to do a final water study to the satisfaction of the Division of Engineering, or else our plan will never be certified on that, and we'll never be able to do it. But we'd like to have the approval recommendation to get your approval of the concept. So he's going to be spending a lot of money, so he at least knows that if we get this approved through the Division of Engineering, we have the model we can build on the property on that. Okay, thank you. Any questions for the applicant? I do. Go ahead. We talk a lot about pedestrian connectivity. I think it's, is there going to be pedestrian access to Leastown Road from the newly constructed townhouses that are facing Leastown rather than the other design we saw, which was a wood fence? And obviously there is no pedestrian connectivity. Are we looking at a situation where you are going to be able to provide pedestrian connectivity to Leestown Road from this frontage? Yes, we will. Yes, and I can even show you how we're going to do it if you want to fumble around with me. You see the pedestrian, the walkway we've got that Dennis has already constructed, And you can see it extending in the fronts of these units. It will tie, obviously, at some spot that is convenient relative to grade and utility disturbance to the sidewalk system that is adjacent to Leastown Road. So you'll have a pretty nice network of sidewalks and pathways through the subdivision area onto Leastown. across Leastown into the commercial area that's being... So you're essentially talking right around, you're connecting up to here. Yep, correct. And you notice there's quite a bit of green space in this photograph that appears. This doesn't really... It doesn't really... It doesn't do it service, really, as to how much green space actually pops up adjacent to that roadway, the Leastown roadway. I have submitted a waiver request to use access easements for the back six units. We have done those on other areas around here to use access easements to access the townhomes. It has nothing to do with stormwater at all. It's just using the access easements for the townhouse community. let me ask you this question if I own the property next door do I have any say in whether you can run the water over on me or not well I don't know I know you own the property next door but my question is is engineer is going to determine whether it's technical or not. If this becomes, and I'm not trying to keep from happening, I'm just trying to think. It's a legitimate question. Let's just say Dennis didn't own the property in Mexico, and I do. Do I have any say about where that water goes? Well, again, I don't know. Dick's anxious to get this microphone. Dick's standing right there too. But I want to point out to you that this water is not going to go which way, which direction do I want. Let's just say Leastown Road runs north to south. This water is not going to discharge this site north or south. It's going to go east, across underneath Leastown Road, into existing infrastructure that exists already in the multitude of developments that have occurred. That helps. We're going underground. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Well, in a path toward a basin, right? Well, certainly. In the infrastructure, when I use the word infrastructure, I'm talking about pipes underground. Right, but this water won't stay underground. Yeah, it's getting over to Great Acres. Yes. Right. I think that's the first time we've heard that. That's interesting. I knew it was going to be a technical issue. So what you're saying, it's going to be delivered through an infrastructure under Lee's Town. That already exists. That's interesting. There may have to be an additional pipe added, but so be it. And, again, the basin across the road exists, too. Essentially, the development across the road is built by my company. We have a regional detention there. We don't have potholes in backyards and potholes on individual lots. We're taking a pothole from the development across the street and we're moving it across into our regional detention. So we're doing away with pothole and going to a regional which we've managed and operated by a company the reason I was And the board of the reason I was in the question is that on the on the Lexington clinic thing You had a golf course with a trench through it. Yeah, so my question I just want to know You don't have that same situation, but I understand what you're saying that Dennis, but This might work for your development, but I don't want this to get to be this is how we handle every development to keep having to build attention. Well, you have a receiving system at Lexington Clinic. It just happened to be the Picadome Golf Course. You have a receiving system here as well. And you're not, you know, it's there. Let's utilize it. Let's make use of it. The technical aspect of this is to dot all the I's and cross all the T's to make sure the facility that is in the ground is built appropriately in terms of grade and alignment. size to do what we're proposing to do. And the key thing to keep in your mind, this retention basin serves 11 acres. The regional system across the street serves almost four square miles. So you can see that, I mean, just in the process of design, construction, that there couldn't possibly be a big enough system to convey and receive. and we know for sure that it is because most of that we were a part of. And you might ask the question, why are we doing it now and why didn't we do it 15 years ago when we first developed this part of Sebastian? Well, all the knowns were not known at that time. All that receiving system on the other side was not developed, was not created. Now it is, and so we've got an opportunity. I'm not interested that much in whether engineering is going to approve or not because I have a lot of faith in that. What I was more than thinking about is putting water on somebody else is what I was trying to do. Well, we're not going to put it on somebody else. It's going to be on Dennis. But even if we were, the general law is a person cannot put water on their neighbor. I mean, that's the common law, which everybody has to observe, and we'll have to observe that on this one, too. Thank you. Any additional questions for the applicant? If not, I've got a question. You know, with what we're talking about here, one, I don't have a problem with what's being proposed at all. the technical aspect has been brought up several times. I'd like to hear from engineering as to their thoughts and see if we can move this thing forward. Helen, it's good seeing you. It's been a while. Good to see you. Could you turn your mic on, please? I think the concept is sound. I mean, we haven't seen the analysis yet for it, but I do know there's an extensive piping system through the Great Acres property on the other side of Leastown Road that discharges to the Big Lake, which I assume is what you're looking at. and that's also the you know the flood plain um bracktown branch i don't know i don't recall the tributary but that eventually ends up going through masters of station park and in that area so it's It's the concept is not far-fetched. I believe they can demonstrate that. It may entail some additional improvements to the system to meet all the requirements. Let me ask that a different way. Okay. If we support moving forward at this point, is the Division of Engineering comfortable with that recommendation this morning? I think so. I mean, ultimately, we would have to accept a drainage study and improvement plans before anything gets built. And if by chance it proved not to be feasible, then it wouldn't get built. and it would be back to an amended final development plan, I guess, to do something different. That's good. Anything else? Okay. All right, thank you. Do we have any public comment? If not, let's bring it back to committee. Oh, I'm sorry. Could you come forward, please? No. Good morning, everyone. I would just like to ask the builders, I think you did a fine job with the layout you just had. Did you consider maybe putting an apartment complex out there in the area or senior living? Excuse me, could you state your name? Oh, I am very sorry. My name is Michelle Hutchison, and I'm the president of the Marlboro Neighborhood Association. I'm sorry. Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm Dennis Anderson. In Great Acres, we have added apartments to the mix of housing available in that area. In McConnell's Trace, we've gone with a new product line. It's a co-living issue. KET did a little something on it the other day. in which we have a common area and then four suites attached to it. The only thing in the common area they share is a kitchen and a meeting room, and they'll have dinner together and watch Kentucky basketball. And it's our senior product. And this is a new concept, and we've been toying with this. We built the first one as a test, and it's gone very well. The ladies that live there, we've only had one person move out. They love it. Their biggest fear is I raised the rents. I told them I would never raise the rents more than their Social Security went up that year. We matched the rent increase with the Social Security increase that year. And we value engineered it. It was very expensive to build. It's like $550,000 for four units. And we want to get that cost down to less than $500,000. We've got seven more. So it would be 28 units. So we've got mixed housing types. We've got living in place. we've got all these things going on in that area. The main driver on this for me as I was driving down Leastown Road which we have a lot going on in Leastown Road and I looked across that drainage swell and I see the backs of houses not near like what was done next door and the fences and we put small fences and that's a community thing. You put a big privacy fence, neighbors never get to meet each other. So on the stuff we build, we put a small picket fence. You can keep your dog or your children out there safely, but you can still talk to your neighbor. And that's such an important ingredient, and that's what's missing in community today. We call it Anderson Communities for a reason. We focus on building opportunities for social interaction, human connection. We see depression, isolation, all these type things. This is a driver in our Golden Oaks with the community pod in the middle and the suites around it. Everything we do, we look at human connection, we look at safety. The driving thing on this, when we look at things, we look at form, function, and finance. And on this, when I drove Leastown Road and I saw how beautiful the townhouses facing Leastown Road look, even without the landscaping in. The landscaping will be added either this winter or this spring. And I looked across that and saw the backs of houses. It just jumps out like, wow, aren't there townhouses there? It looks so much better. Discussed it with Mike, the engineer in office. He engaged EA partners to look at it to see function. Form worked. It was going to be beautiful. Does the function work? And so they looked at it and they said, look, we think we can make this work. So then you go to finance and you project your cost and you project your income and that works. So form was the driving purpose, but it's form, function, and finance. They all have to work. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Any other comments? All right. We'll bring it back to committee. Madam Chair, I move for approval of PLMJDP 2485 Sebastian Property Unit 3 with the attached 18 conditions. I'm sorry. Change 18. Change 18. To what? Is that resolved? Okay. Okay. Changing 18 to resolve. Second. Okay. Motion's been made and properly seconded. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Unanimous. Thank you. Okay, our next case is MJDP 24-86, Covey Ridge Development, Lot 4, located at 125 Canebrake Drive. this one we have the standard sign-offs engineering, traffic engineering, landscape examiners, addressing forester environmental quality bike ped green space, division of fire, division of waste management division of water and postal service and then we have the the note all buildings paving signs, fences, walls shall require a separate review and building permit from division of building inspection. And then some of the issues I think that the applicant actually addressed and came, I don't think he's here, and came in to to submit and then when we discussed what he was really wanting to do with the property it looks like he may go a different direction but he hasn't submitted anything in writing officially to postpone this so we're still recommending postponement I'll just discuss with him again before the full Commission meeting but at this time we're still just gonna recommend postponement Any questions for staff? If there's not any deletion of some of these conditions, are we still going to hear it? I don't think we will. I just need to get he, I think, misunderstood that we needed something in writing from him actually asking to postpone it. He's going to possibly do a request of zone change before moving forward. I don't want to get into this the way it's presented right now. There's no reason for us to get into this. Right. Thank you. Yep. Okay. Anything else for staff? And you said the applicant is not here. I don't see him. I don't think he's here. And I'll take it. We have no public comment. All right. Okay. Okay. Committee. I'm chairman I move for postponement of PLN MJDP 2486 government recommended for postponement second it's been moving probably second all in favor unanimously postponed Okay, next. Okay, the next one, MJDP 24-87 Springhurst Subdivision Unit 2, Lot 2, located at 2090 Harrodsburg Road. This is located along Harrodsburg Road here. and I've forgotten but I believe Lane Allen comes out right up here a little bit farther and it's across from the pizza parlor is that yeah yeah yeah yeah the purpose of this amendment is to depict the construction of a drive-thru coffee shop commercial building and associated parking and drive aisles. We have the standard sign-offs, engineering, traffic engineering, landscape examiner, addressing, urban forester, department environmental quality, bike ped, green space, division of fire, division of waste management, division of water quality, and the postal service. the applicants worked through some of the some of the things that we'd had before we still want to see a tree preservation plan for article 26 the applicant indicated that the lighting plan would be provided prior to certification and then we still need the access easement maintenance note for article 5-4 H1 of the land subdivision regs and then the access easement depicted on the final record plat with or denote the access easement depicted on the final record plat with associated notes and we had discussed that yesterday or we I can let the applicant okay he's giving me a thumbs up and then we added one more to denote the access point onto Harrodsburg Road must be approved by the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet. With that, if you all have any comments or questions, I think we've got a... There's a proposed Dutch Brothers coffee here. There'll be a new entry point and drive-through lanes around the building and then a proposed commercial structure in the rear on a separate lot. All right, any other questions for staff? No, applicants? It's on this way. Good morning. Matt Carter, Vision Engineering. Also, Brandon Gross is here in the back if you have any questions for Brandon. but we do have a few cleanup items left, but I have reviewed all these with the staff, and I think they're comfortable with it. So I really don't have anything else to add. As far as, like, access to the state, we will be submitting to the state if this plan gets approved for our entrance. Let's see. Number 15, the access easement maintenance note. I believe it's on the plan. Let's see. How do you. Right here. This thing right here. This is the. That's the maintenance note. That's my bad. That was another side. So we've added that. All the trees are identified, all the significant trees, they're identified on the plans, so there must be something technical we've got to do to address the trees. Something additional they're asking for, but we're good on what's required on the trees. And the access easements as depicted on the plats. We did go and the access easement is across here, and then it runs up here around the back like this. So we did update that, and it is the same as what's on our proposed plaid as well. Other than that. Matt, is that a write-out? It is a right in, right out, yes. And there's a median across the street to keep anybody from going left. There's not any indoor seating or anything in that rest is strictly a drive-through? It is, yeah. In fact, that came up at the technical committee. Where's the door for the people to come in? But there is a walk-up window right here where you can order, but mostly it's just drive-through traffic. Any other questions for the applicant? Probably not for the applicant, I guess for the staff. It seems like he's saying that there's a note here and a note there, and it is, do we need these other conditions? It sounds like Matt's saying, well, Well, it's shown here, but. I think we can agree to delete 15. Okay. We can see that visibly. But we would like to leave the others. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So the access easement to the adjacent property, that will be, you'll be connected to the Baptist Health site, I guess. Yeah, I believe we did extend it over. There's the property line there, and we did it. Okay. Extend that over. Yes. All right. And in the event that you don't get the access you need because you could technically get access to the north, that may jeopardize the project altogether, but that would be your coming in by the Canes and the McDonald's would be another access point. Yes. Okay. Definitely. Okay. Okay. Any additional questions? Any public comment? Okay. Thank you all. Thank you. We'll bring it back to committee. Madam Chair, I'll move for a recommendation approval plan MJDP 24-87 Springhurst Subdivision with the revised now 16 conditions, delete number 15. Okay. Can we get a second? Can we get a second? Sure. All right. We've been moving and second it. All in favor? Aye. All right. It's unanimous. Thank you. Okay. We're going to move out to the Gibbons property at MJDP 2488, Gibbons property out lot 11. We've been out here quite a bit lately. This is out at the corner of Citation Boulevard, Georgetown Road. This is Remington Way. We're looking at out lot number 11 which is in the middle of this. See we'll bring it up here. Here's a better picture showing as the overall development. You You can see that a lot of it has been developed. We looked at this last month and another one over here. And so they're moving fairly quickly through this development. They're proposing a drive-thru in this restaurant with a drive-thru. As you can see, the drive-thru lane is coming around. They'll have access off of access easements to the north and, again, here down to the south, this being Remington Way. They brought in a revised plan, so they were able to clean up some of the conditions. The first 12 conditions are our typical sign-offs, including the 12th one, which is for building inspection, their note that they want. We still had a couple cleanup conditions, update the site statistics walks for information on S55 on 6 and 7. there was a consolidation done over here and so they showed the proposed building lines but we want to have the plat number put into the site statistics box. Addition of topography information on out lot 11. It looks they have a you can see a couple topography lines outside of the lot. Addition of written scale when they submitted the revised plan. The scale, you could just see it got cut off at the bottom. So that's why we'll want to make sure it's put back on the plan. Denote recommendation of the Royal Springs Aquifer Wellhead Protection Committee. Document lighting plan per Article 30. Addition of outlots 1 and 5 if they're signed before this certification. We want to keep that note on there just so that people contact us and say, Has this one been signed? Do I need to add this information to make sure that we carry forwards all the information? And then resolve five-car stacking with traffic flow to the approval of traffic engineering. We had some concerns. You don't see the drive arrows, but typically when you're driving in, you'll drive in on one side, and then you'll leave on the other. So if you're driving in, you're going to be driving right into the stacking cars. So we were just a little concerned over that. We're hoping they'll work with traffic engineering on cleaning that up. So with that, I'll let it open to you to see if there's any other comments or questions. Any questions for staff? How much is needed car-wise as far as stacking? Is there a minimum? Five car stacking behind. Five car? What's shown there? well say well say shut here's here's why we don't start counting until you're behind the order point so all those cars shown in line ahead of the order point those aren't that's that's for their use that's not meeting the ordinance so it's not the order point that one doesn't count five behind that there is a bit of cut because our i think that's been around for before since before the double so now there's two order points but we don't really differentiate whether to So there is more there's more queuing than there would be if it's just one order point So there might be need to be a little balancing there just because there's only a few entities that that really need a ton of queuing and Chick-fil-a knows that and they They provide is you know and so the other it's a it's an interesting because technically they need five behind the water point with each order point We don't differentiate but now they have 10 10 queues whereas before they just said one on point. They don't have five so So there's maybe some things that we need to tweak as we go forward just to bring it in line with the new reality. But, yeah, there's some other stuff that Cheryl, as far as, like, getting some of those cues that Cheryl and I discussed yesterday, I think they could – I'll bring up. Okay. We have any other questions for staff? The applicant? Good morning. Brad Boaz with CMW. The site is relatively flat. We do have a 952 contour shown in the top of the site, so we do show the topography. It's just a flat site, so there's not topo line. So we're okay removing that one. And then, yeah, I've worked with David on updating, revising the drive-through, and we'll continue to work with him to make sure he's comfortable with how we have the drive-through. It is not a Chick-fil-A, so we don't have to worry about that. Unfortunately. Other than that, we're good with the conditions. All right. Any other questions for the applicant? Do we have any public comment? Okay, thank you all. I'll bring it back to the committee. All right, Madam Chair, I move for approval of PLMJDP 2488, Gibbons property out like 11 with the attached 19 conditions and do you want to remove 14 because he said it was a flat lot so there's should not be any biography on there all right with removing 14 that should be 18 conditions Correct. Okay. Did everybody get that? Okay. All right. The motion has been made. Do we have a second? No, sir. Second by Commissioner Finn. All those in favor? Aye. Unanimous. Thank you. Moving forward. We're going to go to MJDP 2489, First United Methodist Church amended. We were looking at this not too long ago because they had been working with water quality, Division of Water Quality for a stormwater grant that they were going to do some work over here in the parking lot. This is High Street and Upper, and then I get this one mixed up, Mill. and so this First United Church up here parking lot well they've come back and the money was a little tight they're not going to be able to do the stormwater grant so they're coming back to remove the improvements to this part of the parking lot with that grant they're wanting to subdivide off this piece of property they have a record plant also in to create a separate lot here for this structure on the property. They were approved for an access point off of Upper Street on the last development plan, and they're wanting to keep that. They're also wanting to do some improvements through here, just removing the stormwater grant proposal. But they want to keep that parking area. And so they brought us in the revised plan. They were able to do some cleanup. We just have the first aid as our sign-offs, addition of height of the building, and document the lighting plan per Article 30 of the zoning ordinance. That's for parking lots, so that's a new condition. With that, I'll open it to you all to see if there's any other comments or questions. Questions for staff? Presumably the stormwater grant was there to solve a problem. If they're not going to be able to do what they propose to do, do they still have a problem that has to be solved? I'll let them explain what the stormwater grant. I know they wanted to put impervious pavers and that sort of thing on the property, but I don't know a lot of detail on their grant proposal. All right. Do we have the applicant? Good morning. My name is Charlie Hall with Arrowhead Engineering. The reason those were removed, this church never actually had a final development plan, so when we wanted to do those improvements, there were a lot of other things in the zoning ordinance that kicked in that were in addition to the stormwater improvements that they just couldn't afford to do. So that's why they're reeling it back a little bit. Okay, thank you. Any questions? I'm sorry, that still doesn't answer my question. Do you have a stormwater problem there that needs to be addressed through the revised, going back to the old design? I don't think there was really a huge problem with the stormwater there. I think it was just a way to improve their parking lot. So the stormwater grant was a means to change the parking, I guess? In a way. It was to improve the parking lot, and then at the same time, it was just a way to drain it better. But there's nothing there. There's no standing water or flooding problems that they need to address. Okay. Any other questions for the applicant? Okay. So are they going to... Are they... They're separating the front lot off? Is that what's happening? From the building in the lower left, they are, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. If they sell, that will be a problem. They plan to sell it. They plan to sell the house. Yeah. Okay. All right. Any other questions for the applicant? If not, do we have any public comment? Thank you, applicant. Okay. We'll bring you back to committee. You ready for a motion? Yes. Madam Chair, I move approval of PLN MJDP 2489 with the 10 conditions provided by staff. Moving a second. All those in favor? Aye. That's unanimous. Thank you. Okay, we're going to move next to MJDP 24-90 Interstate Service Center amended. This is located out off of Stanton Way. So we're going to go out Newtown Pike. This is the interstate down here, the access to get onto the interstate. This is Stanton Way. Here's a better idea. What they're proposing is to add building square footage. They've removed the Waffle House. They're wanting to add building square footage to the existing building. It's a C-store. They're wanting to put in a drive-through with a pickup window, add two additional tanks, two additional canopy pump stations, move the tanks over to this location because they were over in this area here, They're giving a walkway over here to a seating area heading out towards Newtown Pike. So they had several changes. They came in with a revised plan. The first 12 are standard sign-offs for the plan. Denote that the recommendations of the Royal Springs Wellhead Protection Committee need to be listed on the plan. Then we had clarified building square footage for area pickup window. Like I said, this was a revised plan. So they were going to have the pickup window back in this area, but now through design with their engineer, they decided to bring the pickup window over this way, which it looks like they're adding square footage. So we wanted to make sure, because they didn't change the numbers, we want to make sure that if they are adding additional building square footage that they picked that up also. So that's where condition number 14 came from. So with that, I will open it to you all to see if there's any other comments or questions. Any questions for staff? Cheryl, is this just an addition? It's not a total rebuild? My understanding is an addition because they had done a lot of work on this previously so they're leaving the canopy, the existing canopy here for the pumps. The store is staying the same. They're just wanting to add. They're going to combine the two lots together so that they're able to add additional parking and square footage. It's not going to be the same square footage as what the Waffle House has, but it's getting there. Thank you. Okay. All right. we'll hear from the applicant thank you good morning my name is Greg Smorstad with banks engineering and this plan has gone through a fair amount of changes from TRC till now but I think what we have shown on the plan seems to work a lot better like Cheryl said we're going to be consolidating these lots and we we are increasing the lot coverage from what was existing so the existing gas station there was an existing car wash and then there was an existing Waffle House on the small lot that's on the right now that we're consolidating them adding the building addition a new canopy we're actually increasing the lot coverage from what it currently is today but we're okay with the, excuse me, the revised conditions, and I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. Do we have any questions for the applicant? So what you're doing, you're closing one of the entrances on the existing lot and moving it over to the one that's on the Waffle House lot? So currently there were three entrances. There was one in this area. There was one in this area right here. And then this one is existing already. So we're going from three entrances down to two entrances. Yeah. Underneath where it says existing entrance, can you just add to be removed? Yes. That's clear. That's what we found. Yes. Sorry. It's not drawn, so it seems clear to me that you're intending to remove it, but just the fact that it still says existing entrance. Right. Yeah, that just kind of got lost. We'll remove that off of there. Well, being as this is where Mr. Owens and I get coffee in the morning, he gets coffee, I get another beverage. But this is an improvement, definitely an improvement. Do what? I said this is important to you. Well, let's just say I'm more than familiar with the candy store that's inside. No, there were some, and there are some existing problems with the site in terms of truck circulation and things like that. And we're really trying to improve those, you know, with this plan. So to follow up with what Mr. Penn was saying, being in there this morning getting coffee, the expansion area, I presume, is not for strip club? That's what I was being told. That's what the boy does. Really? Yeah. Okay. I don't think that's the plan. Okay. It's not a permitted use in that zone. It'd be awfully small, wouldn't it? You speak in authority. Okay. Okay, okay. Let's bring it back. All right. Okay. Any other questions for the applicant? Any public comment? Okay. Now we're back to committee. Thank you all. Be your pleasure. Madam Chair, I'll move for recommendation and approval of Plan MJDP 24-90 Interstate Service Center with the revised 14 conditions. It's moving second all in favor all right nice you to have miss. Thank you All right. The next case is MJDP 24-93, Marlboro Manor Subdivision, Lexington Motel, the Transie Haggard Apartments, located at 475 and 495 Haggard Lane and 450 Radcliffe Road. This site backs up to I-75, I-64, and Paris Pike Broadway is down, a little farther down. And in this area, there are hotels and gas station, and the access off Broadway comes in on Haggard. The purpose of this plan is to depict the development of 29 single-family dwellings, 26 townhomes, five multifamily buildings in support of the requested zone change from a neighborhood business B1, corridor business B3 zones, interchange service business B5P and mixed low density residential R2 to a mixed low density residential R2, planned neighborhood residential R3 and medium density residential R4 zone. The first condition is that this is contingent upon the approval of the zone change. There's an engineering sign-off, traffic engineering, urban forest or green space, and Department of Environmental Quality. The applicants addressed a few of the other conditions that we had. There was a spelling error in note 19. We've added that to be fixed. We're still looking for a purpose statement on the document. and there are some requested variances and so it's contingent upon those variances being approved. Denote location of possible driveways for single family and townhomes particularly the townhomes. We discussed that in tech committee but we do need to see those. And then discuss lots proposed to be dedicated as public right-of-way. There's some parcels that are proposed as public right away one is the corner of haggard and radcliffe there's a parcel here between the townhomes a parcel at the end here and a parcel at the end there that are all indicated as to be dedicated for public right away and then to discuss the place builder criteria just can you go back to the main plan and just really describe for the commission overarching what they're doing. Yes. So, um, so, uh, this area is proposed single family, um, with these five units over here as single family, as well as R2. Um, this kind of next layer is a proposed R3, uh, townhomes. There is alley access, uh, between the single family and the townhomes, I believe the single-family front, Haggard and Radcliffe. And then this is an internal drive that separates those two areas from the multifamily that would be R4 down here with multiple structures and then one large structure on this lot in this area. the one large building at Haggard and I can't remember that is it Haggard Court okay Haggard and Haggard Haggard Haggard is a senior living structure so so it's hard to tell just looking at the diagram from from here for me but does this meet standards for open and green space? There's a lot of impervious space on that diagram. Yeah, on the multifamily they've indicated open space in these areas down here over in this area. I think there's maybe there's some, let's see, does it show on this? Oh, we have some renderings as well. I think, is that something you all wanted to, or just kind of? Okay. Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah, that was the other one I was looking for. So it shows There's some open space up there. I think there's open space between the large structure and the smaller multifamily. The one picture you just showed of the elevation, so is that four stories or is the first floor semi-underground? It's all above ground. Okay. I just couldn't tell from where the windows are. the alleyways I guess my question is that is that's all private access private other words the access to that back alleys back through there are they part of the deed or they're not part of the deed I that's that's been part of the big part of our discussion as well. I think it's their intention that it's dedicated to public, which is... Maybe, right? It's a policy decision for sure. That's something we've got to hash out. This is preliminary, so it doesn't necessarily have to be hashed out at the moment, but that's... Alleyways are going to be encouraged going forward as far as the urban growth management plan and then the complete streets, but what they look like and how they operate and who owns them isn't necessarily been the complete streets manual is not out yet so we've not really determined all those aspects so well then what standards are built correct yeah how wide is it does it have typically alleys on sidewalks we've talked about that you know yeah so there's still a lot to be for that particular topic there's still a lot of details that we're not so sure on procedure wise we'll go ahead with it preliminary and then that'll be decided They indicate you yeah, so initially this was submitted as a subdivision plan Which means they could build public but they indicated yesterday and I guess you've you we've pulled that so this they cannot build from this Until the final so that that was my concern when I saw there's actually still MJ sub on the plan They're gonna remove that because it's they're not there yet, so We actually rejected the preliminary subdivision plan and then asked them to file a development plan, which is what is 95% of the cases is what we get with those own changes, a preliminary development plan. So that's what this is. We'll live to fight another day on that. I think the applicant may speak to this, but the other aspect of this is that it's affordable housing, and I think they're not wanting much private maintenance, so there doesn't have to be an HOA to help keep the cost down. So I think that's part of that. One other question. Single-family houses, Haggard and Radcliffe, obviously facing those streets with an alley behind it. The townhouses, which way are they facing? I think this. So that will be a new street in itself. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, any other questions for staff? Okay, we've got place builder. Good morning, Planning Commission. My name is Eve Miller. I'm a senior planner with the, thank you, Divisional Planning. I assisted Mr. Crum in planning services this month with the review for PLN MAR 24-18. and Chris detailed a little bit of the applicants proposal but they are looking to rezone for Sony 5495 haggard Lane and 450 Radcliffe Road they're looking to change neighborhood business be one zone corridor business be three zone and interchange service business be 5p to mix low-density residential are to plan Neighborhood residential are three and medium density are four for about twelve point four nine acres net The applicant has chosen the enhanced neighborhood place type to be context sensitive with the surrounding neighborhood And staff agrees with this decision as well as the low to medium development type for this property The applicant has shared with staff that they have met with the neighborhood on several occasions most recently meeting with them on November 11th of this year. So we will discuss the zone change in further detail this afternoon. But if you have any questions, we are happy to answer them at this time. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions regarding place building? Okay. If not, we'll bring the applicant up. Good morning, John Woodall on behalf of the applicant. This is an exciting project to be a part of. This started out with some of our members of our banking community working with not only our team of nonprofits, with Zach Worsham at Winterwood, Johan Graham with AU Associates, near with Habitat, Porter People with Urban League, and Austin Sims with local housing. It's been a real team effort to pull this together. But this used to be the Transylvania baseball facility. Played probably a thousand games out there with my older boys over the years when it was used for tournaments and things like that during the summertime. Back in 2019, Trancy made the decision to move everything to Legends Field out here at Whiteper Park and move their games there, which is great for them, but left this facility with not being maintained, not being used. It's a lot of money to keep up. so when they started looking at analysis of what this property could be used for it was a real natural given our massive shortage in this community of affordable housing and we don't really want to call this affordable housing we call it transformational housing because something like this has never been done you've never had a private lender come in like this and participate on the front end like they have to enable the purchase of the property from Transylvania and then the transfer of that property to this team in a way that that will happen. Of course the money has to be paid back but nonetheless it usually doesn't work that way. So then came designing this number one and then came getting the neighborhood engagement and opinion on this because they've been used to looking at a close to 13 acre green space And now you're going to have a housing development there. And this isn't just going to be your typical rental transformational housing or affordable housing. These single-family structures will be owner-occupied, which also makes this very unique. but in any event before I got involved I know there were at least at least two meetings and there's some representatives of the neighborhood here and they'll speak to this but there were at least two meetings with all of the folks that I just named and Ed Holmes I'm sorry I left Ed's name out part of the design team to gauge what their concerns were here and whether we could address any of those or not this the site in terms of its relationship to the adjoining neighborhoods is very advantageous in terms of its topography because it flows down to the south towards Broadway, Paris Pike. And so when we get to the multifamily, we'll call it sections, Those are what are going to be four stories, and we're at a lower point in the site, which is a lot more aesthetically friendly if you're living in the neighborhood adjacent to it. But essentially the concerns, and we had the most recent meeting was November the 11th at the neighborhood center there at the park, at Marlboro-Reichel Park, I believe it's called. but it was well attended meeting and the concerns are what you would expect you know what I didn't realize in this area is there's there's been a drainage issue in this particular area of the neighborhood that folks have had a problem with over the years and then of course traffic concerns and then just the concerns of where people going to park so in trying to address those the design and I'll let Steve speak to this Steve Garland with with Prime on how he and Ed laid this thing out to be as neighborhood friendly as it could be in terms of our relationship with the neighborhood but one of the one of the things we asked for and staff wrote a very comprehensive report here it's a super job as they always do and we agree with about every line of it except for the part where they just they recommend disapproval of our of our variance of the 20-foot front yard requirement and we reduced that we asked to reduce that to 10 just from the standpoint to add more parking inside the development so that it wouldn't be float over onto the adjacent streets and so forth and we just we got the report yesterday and tried to kind of go back and see if we can what if we if we do what staff wants us to do will that work how many spaces will we lose we think we don't hold me to this because we're just playing with it but right now but we maybe lose four spaces but the reason it was laid out this way was to accommodate as many parking spaces as we could inside now I I realize that we've kind of gotten away from over parking like we did in this community for years. So I understand that's probably why staff wants us to get back down to where this should be. And to do what they want to do, I think we don't lose as many spaces, but we do lose some. So that's why we asked for the variance. It didn't have anything to do with money. It didn't have anything to do with density. It was an idea of how does this look the most aesthetically pleasing and how do we pick up some more parking spaces. That was it. But otherwise, you saw some of the renderings. You'll see more of those this afternoon. But as for the rest of the conditions that staffs laid out in their plan, we are in agreement with. And the neighborhood has been very gracious. The meeting on the 11th I thought was a good one. And, you know, that's what you want. You want to have good dialogue. And they had valid concerns. And, you know, we're going to try to be, and I know we will be with this team, a good neighbor. And so, but with that, we'll take any questions. Steve, you got anything you want to add? The only thing, Ed Holmes and his planning group did an excellent job. We followed the zoning ordinance, subdivision regulations, place builder, and the multifamily guidelines. And I've been asked by even some of my competitors, how did you do it? And I said, well, this land just lays right. It really does. It's one of these unicorn pieces of property where Radcliffe is the ridge. As John was saying, all the flow flows away from the neighborhood this way. Haggard is high at Radcliffe and Haggard and flows down towards Parris Pike. So that allows the single family to provide a visual buffer to the townhouses, which pushes the apartments further back. So it does a great job screening. During the public meetings, we heard a lot about traffic, about speed. And one of the things we did with the curvature of Road A is we wanted to make sure that no one could use this as a racetrack cutting through. We wanted to keep that speed down. A couple of things we've added to Radcliffe from our meeting is you see two sets of bump outs up on Radcliffe. And I've got to note that those are only preliminary if you want to push the button. Every time I push this button, I mess this thing up. we put the tube up to the left a little it's on here we go all right right thank you tracy right there okay you sit there and sit there and and of course we haven't spoke to and coordinated with property owners but that's the thought of putting in some bump outs like we did over and Andover Forest Drive to provide a psychological speed reduction. When they see those bump outs, you slow down. Even though there's plenty of pavement there, it's a psychological movement where you'll hit the brake. We also, even though we're not required to stripe the road, I wanted to see how many on-street parking we could get. so we we added on-street parking to road at first we tried a and road a and the alley and then a traffic and fire pointed out well we really don't want on-street parking on the alley we want to be able to get the fire truck through there and so we we've added a note that there's no on-street parking on the alley and only one-sided street parking on road a but I still think we can get about 31 to 33 depending on how people behave when they're parallel parking on street parking there so we really want to get all our parking out of their neighborhood and keep it on our property I think that's about it that I can add if you guys have any questions do we have any questions for the applicant Hold on one second. This is a question for the committee to ask and we'll get public comment in a minute. Madam Chair, I've got one question. Mr. Wardall mentioned the fact of the possible variance and preliminary looking at the fact that you may lose four parking lots? Spaces. Yes, yes for inside and this is space and this just relates Okay to the garden There and there so under the new parking regulations Vua parking cannot extend past the face of the building. So when we move the building back, we got to move Parking well, we've as you can see we park almost to property line to property line, so you just lose some. And we're just trying to be compassionate with our neighbors and provide as much parking as we could squeeze in. I'm sure we'll hear about it later, but where I'm headed is, does that mean the need for the variance will go away? It would, yes, sir. If we just say, okay, we'll lose our four spots. Thank you. Okay. Have any other questions from the committee? All right. Thank you, Appalachian. At this time, if we have anyone from the public who would like to make a comment, question, please come forward. Do you want to let him ask his question first? Please come forward. He would need to come forward if we can. Good morning. Again, my name is Michelle Hutchison. I am the president of the Neighborhood Association Marlboro Radcliffe neighborhood. I've been a residence there for over 25 years. I love where I live at. Unfortunately, I'm looking for other housing. We did meet with the builders, but me personally, along with a lot of my neighbors, we're unhappy with the structure that's going in. Granted, we do know that something's going to be there, but why does it have to be four stories high? Why can't it be all one level to look like where we currently live? Some of the concerns that I have is it's just going to be an increase in crime. We've already seen a lot of foot traffic from the windburn development, the infrastructure. All our neighbors, including myself, previously have had water in their basement. that was supposed to have been fixed. However, it's not. We would also like to see home ownership. I had to work and pay for my house. Why shouldn't there be ownership instead of rental? The foot traffic's going to increase. The crime's going to increase. The garbage is going to increase. You name it, it's going to be increased in that small area of development. Yes, we did meet with the builders, but we never agreed. We just identified our concerns. And as a homeowner in that neighborhood, this is some of my concerns. Thank you. Thank you. Any additional questions, comments? Like Michelle, I think I'm speaking for a lot of people. Could you state your name? My name is David Williams, and I live on Russell Cave Road, have lived there for 38 years. And I've lived in North Lexington for all my life. I was born on Bryan Avenue in a house. So I'm from around there. And I just, we already have problems with traffic and sewage and the storm drainage. I live in a flood plain since the day I moved in. It's always been since it's developed. And we see the storm sewer lids blowing off when there's a two or three inch rain. They just blow off, and the storm sewage goes into the creek. We don't have to worry about it. It goes on down to Georgetown, I guess. But that's really a concern. I'd like to know. I think the sewage can't come down to New Circle Road, and I don't know where it's going or the storm drainage from this. It needs to go north, or you were talking about it, going over to Paris Pike. But where does it go from there? So that is a big concern of all of us. What is the plan? And are there going to be more lanes coming out Broadway? I think that should be a consideration coming out of town to the interstate. There's a little room between Broadway and the railroad tracks there. There needs to be a couple more traffic lanes. The sewage and the water runoff has to go north. It can't come south down to New Circle Road. There's no room down where we live now. So there's not enough infrastructure for the people living in the area right now. We already live in a floodplain. Insurance is going up constantly. With climate change, it's certain to get worse and not better, just the way it sits now. So we just added 202 units out Russell Cave Road at the Alcove that has increased. Everybody brought pictures today. I should have brought a few pictures of the traffic now that we have to deal with right now. So this is only going to make all that worse. I'm for housing for people and all, but there's a lot of places in Lexington that are run down and could be redeveloped and made housing besides this. There's no room for it. Thank you. Thank you. Any additional public comment? Okay. Good morning. My name is Jacqueline Anderson Williams. I live at 1506 Russell Cave Road. I've lived there for 38 years, and I also own the house next door at 1510 Russell Cave Road. In those 38 years, oh, I'm the second owner. The house was built in 1962, and that's when the whole subdivision, Elkhorn Park, was developed, as well as Marlboro-Radcliffe area, which is right behind Elkhorn Park. That's when the storm sewers were designed and built. The sewers were updated in the 1990s, but when the sewers were updated, the new sewer line that came down through my property broke the tiling that was in Elkhorn Park. So now every time it rains, my backyard floods because the tiling in Elkhorn Park is really just a floodplain overflow like the guys on Leestown Road want to do away with. That's what Elkhorn Park is. so my backyard floods in the middle 2000s the city, the sewer people came out and put in backflow valves at my house and my next door and the house next door but I still cannot flush the toilet take a shower, run my dishwasher or wash clothes if it's raining because if that backflow valve fails, sewage will come into my house. It's come in before. I don't want sewage in my bathtub. I want bathwater in my bathtub. The people next door have four children. Now tell them they can't take a shower or do the wash or wash their dishes every time it rains. we know we need housing we got it but why do we have to have this high density housing added to our already compromised infrastructure system david's right the roads are not adequate the storm drains are not adequate the sewers are not adequate and yet you want to add another 140 doors, at least 500 more people, when we just got 202 doors and 600 people at the alcove at the top of Russell Cave and Winchester Road. You talk about affordable housing, I get affordable housing. I have rental properties in the north side of Lexington that I maintain and try and take good care of the renters. Some of them have been there since we bought the properties in 1998 or 2000 but So people do have to have housing, but they don't all have to have housing right in my neighborhood we don't have to add an already on Haggard Lane and Radcliffe Road where I used to go to get out to the interstate I can't go there anymore because now There's so much traffic backed up on Haggard Lane most times of the day that it comes all the way back to Radcliffe try and take a left out of my driveway any time of the day oh well that's not quite true this morning we only had to wait a few minutes to take a left out of our driveway but usually if it's any time 730 to 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock to 7 o'clock we have to wait up to 10 minutes to take a left out of our driveway it used to be longer but now chick-fil-a is there and so they block the traffic when they're turning illegally on left on the Russell Cave Road. So you know sometimes you need to look at what's already there and what the people have already put up with for 38 years. No shower in the rain for 38 years and it's not going to be fixed it's going to be worse because David's right that water that is being absorbed by that green space now is all going to run right off, maybe to Paris Pike, but then it's going to run right downhill to Elkhorn Park and to our creek, which is already overflowing and stopped up under Russell Cave Road with tree debris and garbage that hasn't been taken away in two years. And my 72-year-old husband is out there trying to cut the trash out from under that underpass with a chainsaw, which he has no business doing, but nobody else will do it. I think you really need to think about the people who are already there, who are already paying taxes, and who shouldn't be having to look for another place to live. When you do do this, the infrastructure should already be fixed and in place before more houses are built. Thank you. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Okay. Do we have any response from the applicant? Oh, do we have one more? Hold on, applicant. Good morning. My name is Rachel Sloan, and my husband and our extended families are lifelong residents of Radcliffe and Marlboro. I'm here to speak on behalf of our Neighborhood Association about the development of the Transylvania Athletic Fields. While we are happy to see economic investment in the long-neglected north side of Lexington, it needs to be a measured and intentional approach. Many neighbors attended meetings hosted by investors and developers and provided input for housing design and density, lot sizes, construction of multifamily dwellings, traffic congestion, sanitary and storm sewer infrastructure, and public safety. We were assured that these concerns would be taken into consideration when the plans were developed. After the initial proposal was unveiled, neighbors suggested revisions, but the final design plan did not incorporate many of these ideas Architects did not render a plan that complements the aesthetics of our current neighborhood As the design stands, lot sizes are 3,500 square feet Less than half the size of current lots, which average one quarter acre or 8,400 square feet The aforementioned request for a variance to reduce the building setback along proposed Road A from 20 feet to 10 feet would further detract from our current plot designs Builders have indicated that only the facades of the homes will be brick, differing from the all brick homes that we currently have in the rest of the neighborhood Our neighborhood is bounded by Russell Cave, Radcliffe, North Broadway, and Cane Run Roads and contain no apartment complexes or fourplexes and no buildings taller than two stories. Despite being told this, the current proposal includes both three- and four-story structures. For my in-laws at the corner of Blue Ridge and Haggard... 1828 Blue Ridge Drive. That's going to be directly across from the four-story senior living facility. Sloping topography is irrelevant. When they walk out their front door and turn to the right, they are going to see a four-story senior living facility. Additionally, multifamily dwellings that are not properly maintained and fall into disrepair, such as Fox Run and Matador North apartments in nearby Windburn, become blights on their neighborhood. Traffic congestion and pedestrian safety is a primary concern, as our neighborhood roads were built for 1970 standards. Haggard Lane, which intersects North Broadway near I-64 and I-75 interchange, is routinely backed up nearly half the length of the road at peak commuter hours in the morning and afternoon, as is North Broadway and the 113 on-ramp. Residents have been told that Haggard is a state road and no alterations would be made to medians to accommodate increased traffic volume. A recurring issue on Radcliffe Road is speeding. Now as a sidebar, in August of this year, a speeding vehicle crashed into my mother and father's house on Radcliffe Road, going through their living room and bedroom After raising concerns about speeding, we were told that because Radcliffe is a collector road, traffic calming devices such as speed tables are not allowed Designs call for two additional entrances to the development on Radcliffe with only two-way stop intersections Additionally, long-term plans for the city call for the connection of Citation Boulevard to Radcliffe Road near Northside Public Library which will inevitably become a throughway from Newtown Pike to North Broadway further increasing traffic woes Infrastructure, as previously addressed, is another issue that was pointed out A large percentage of homes battle groundwater intrusion in basements after moderate to heavy rainfall Even with plans to utilize pervious parking lots The hard scaping of the baseball and soccer fields with concrete slab foundations and roads Will negatively affect stormwater runoff and further impact current homeowners Sanitary sewer treatment capacity at town branch is another concern. As a neighbor pointed out, after heavy rainfalls, sewer caps are becoming dislodged and raw waste is spilling out. If the current design is approved, the additional influx of residents will potentially strain public safety resources and could cause delayed emergency response times for police and fire units. Therefore, we are proposing that the Planning Commission approve the zoning change to only permit construction of single-family homes This would allow for larger lot sizes that better blend with the character of our neighborhood While minimizing traffic and infrastructure impacts We recognize the need for affordable housing in Lexington and understand that our 13-acre green space will create home ownership opportunities for others. However, it should not be to the detriment of the neighborhood that I love and have called home for over five decades. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, do we have any additional public comment? Okay, all right. Would the applicant like to respond? Well, that's a lot. And we have listened and we've worked with them as best as we can within the confines of what we have. Once again, we have a zoning ordinance and we have subdivision regs that set the lot sizes. So we're following the rules. That's what we're following. As far as drainage goes, it does, like I said, Radcliffe's the high point, it falls away. My heart goes out to these folks, but our water's not even flowing towards them. And with our new engineering standards, and I call them new, I've been around long enough that I remember when they were new, started in 2000 and then revised in 2005, and now stormwater was revised again in 2020 you cannot increase the runoff from your development we all know this detention basins and other techniques are now required they're in the stormwater manual it's been in the ordinance for at least 30 years that I know of we have two large underground detention basins shown on the plans well I did it again Right there, yeah, bottom right-hand corner where the natural flow is coming to this corner. And here, there's a public MS4 storm sewer on Hagrid Court. And there's a public storm sewer in the back of the Red Roof Inn and the professional office building next to it. So those are to tie to. There's a new large sanitary sewer pump station that the city built right there. And I believe it's a 10-inch force main that carries it to the gravity sewer. And as we all know, we're under a consent decree. The city of Lexington is working hard. We have the capacity assurance program going on in the remedial measures program. The city's working hard to fix all the sewer issues, but that is beyond the scope of our project. I don't see anybody from Sanitary Sewers, but we've checked the capacity. There's a capacity assurance interactive map online, so you can check to see if you have capacity in your sewer shed. This does have capacity. I've also talked to them in person, and as part of the final sign-off, of course, everybody has to sign off on the plan on the technical side. To let everybody know, I did find out this morning there is a KYTC planning study that is being done on, and correct me if I miscalled anything, it's being done on Parris Pipe between New Circle and past the interstate. Okay. So the state is already looking at that. It's a planning study. Trying to think what else to talk about. So I'll just say any other questions or clarifications that you guys have need? Do we have any questions here? Thank you. Steve, a couple of questions. One, as far as the apartments, how many bedrooms are in the apartments? Boy, Mike, you got me. I know it's 83 units. As far as a bedroom count, I'd have to go squint at the table. 83 units. As far as. I want to say it's close to, I'm looking back at, it's close to 125 if it's bedrooms. Okay. In that neighborhood down on Haggard Lane where the court Haggard court is did I hear that's senior living senior living? How tall are those buildings? That's a four-story building. They are four stories along with the apartments. The apartments are three-story. The apartment are three stories and senior living is four. Okay. The three-story are the typical garden style apartments that you've been seeing around town. And then question for Dave with traffic. Radcliffe Road, knowing Radcliffe Road, there's, to my knowledge, there's parking on the street. How does the bump out, how would the bump outs work with parking on the street? Well, that would be prohibitive for that particular location. You wouldn't have a parking spot. And that's something we'll talk about. They've got bump outs. i we've talked we'll talk more going forward about how how traffic calming would look i would prefer it at the intersections themselves generally we've only installed bump outs after the fact when it's harder to when drainage and you can't really affect drainage so that's something we can talk about going forward uh because i again i prefer it at the intersection it looks cleaner and then you don't you don't you can't park at the intersection anyway so it doesn't affect that And then Haggard Lane, is that a state road? I don't think so. I think the intersection of, of course, Paris Pike is, but Haggard Lane, I don't, I'd be surprised if that's a state route. That doesn't sound right. It's not a state route. It's your road. Yeah, that's what you can say. It should be a local road. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Hold on a second. If you could come forward, because we can't hear you. And this is. Rachel Sloan again. I've attended several of the neighborhood meetings, and I was told that Haggard Lane is a state road and that the yellow devices that were installed at the corner of North Broadway and Haggard were installed by the state transportation cabinet, and that if we wanted to address our concerns about that and our inaccessibility to the gas stations that are on the access road that we now have to cut through the Casey's General Store to get to, that we should contact our Secretary of Transportation, Jim Gray. So Haggard Lane is a local street. The intersection, as you approach the intersection, the state has control over how that works. So you're at the intersection, and that was a state project. But the street itself, like going up, going, well, page north, whatever, Haggard Lane is a local street. But yeah, that was a project. That was what those ballers would ever put in by them, by the state. And that's also another concern that we have, too, is because what you can't see on this graphic is that if you were some. Well, I'm just going to walk over here. So Hagrid Court right here. If you go into Hagrid Court, what you're not seeing down here is the Unity Worship Center. and there is an access road there off of Hagrid Court that would allow neighbors into the businesses on the access road that fronts to North Broadway, but that's been closed by gate, and it's never been open since those rollers were installed. So we've been denied access to that road, and I'm already seeing what's happening on Russell Cave Road at Chick-fil-A and at Walmart when they've put those rollers up. People are just going up there and making U-turns around them. I mean, I counted three cars in a matter of five minutes out my kitchen window last weekend that were making U-turns at the intersection of Broadway and Haggard Lane because of inaccessibility. The U-turns typically are one of the reasons that they do it. They typically, U-turns are generally okay because you're cutting in, you're turning left across traffic, especially, basically it's an access management project. What they did there's too many access points. There's a lot of places where people could turn left So that's why they closed there's an access point on Broadway They closed and then that left go when you come out the C store the Speedway they closed So it's trying to limit the conflict points. That's that's the the idea behind it There's limited instances where people can can get into accidents That was their their reasoning Okay, but that rationale also meant that you've excluded access for neighbors into those businesses without cutting through private parking lots Okay. I think that's aside from what we're talking about today. But are there any other questions from the committee? Staff, did you have anything to add? Okay. All right. We'll bring it back to committee. I've got a comment. And this comment comes from just scrolling. We're dealing with a major housing crisis. We're looking at vacant and unutilized property that is currently zoned for, I mean, a different group of zoning. We're looking at B3, B5P, B1. There's R2, R2. So what we're looking at is a piece of vacant and underutilized property to solve a big problem that we have. What is this big problem that we're looking at? Okay, so the most recent data from KHC doesn't call out housing type, but we need a total of 30,823 new units by 2029. I had to get clarification on that. 30,000 units. We've expanded our urban service area by 2,800 acres. That is not going to be developed for years. We've got a major housing crisis, and this is a wonderful opportunity to do so. And we are going to continue as a group to face difficult decisions with very valid concerns from neighbors who do not want development in their backyard. I understand that. It's going to be emotional for everyone involved in these decisions that we are going to be facing as a planning commission moving forward. So I'm just saying that I'm hearing the concerns. This is going to be the norm. We are going to have to face this problem now, and we're going to have to do it to the best of our community's ability, and it's going to be difficult, and this is what we are going to be facing as a planning commission moving forward. Thank you for that emphasis. I mean, that is kind of just where we are as a city in need of housing, that we're going to have to create some opportunities that will make certain neighborhoods look a little bit different than they have in the past. and that's just kind of the reality of where we are. And so it's not, and I just want the public to know, it's not an easy decision to make as we review plans like this. But definitely your concerns are heard, and it actually sounds like there are some other concerns that are really beyond the scope of where we are right now that need to be addressed in that area. And so I hope that our city officials are listening and will pay attention to the concerns that they currently have. Yeah, I would add to that. What I'm hearing from the developer is that the drainage issues, given the contour of the land and what they're proposing, will not aggravate what's already happening in Radcliffe and Marlboro. and I hope that's the case. I personally think nobody should have to live in a situation where they have sewage backflow into their houses. And accepting what the developer has said, I'm speaking to neighborhood personnel now, or residents. We had that in my neighborhood years ago. I personally went out and took videos of what we called fecal fountains in our neighborhood, and I sent them to Mr. Martin routinely every time we had that. And the consent degree should be fixing that problem. And I hope we use this as an opportunity to elevate that problem for this neighborhood because nobody should have to live that way. But I think that's an issue that has to be separated from here if the drainage is not going to aggravate that. and that neighborhood needs some advocacy for what's already an existing problem separate from this. Okay. With that, if there are no other comments, what would be the pleasure of the committee? Yes. I'd like to make a motion to approve the Zoning Development Plan PLN MJDP 24-93 Marlboro Manor Subdivision Lexington Motel with the 17 conditions. It's 12 conditions. Oh, sorry. With the revised 12 conditions, it looks like they solved quite a few of the problems. Thank you. With the revised 12 conditions. I'll second the motion. Okay. The motion has been made and seconded. At this time, would you like to vote all those in favor? Aye. All right. That looks like it's unanimous. Thank you. Okay, could we take about a five-minute break? Been sitting here for a couple hours. Okay. Thank you. I would just wear any characterization, just any way that I'm going to claim. It's a mild man-toothel. It's a second level. That's what I'll say next time. I'll say this. This. I'll say this. I'll say this. I'll say this. All right, see ya. Oh, yeah, we have 70 goals. We'll send out, I didn't get to do it before, but basically, but adding an actual . Send it forward. Oh, okay, okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. have the interview will pass and bring the site and this is more about it. They send it over with it. So, what if they approve? Plus, that's a . Is that it? Okay, we're all that. I think it's a great second. I think it's a great second. But it's all. That's a good one. So, it's a good one. Three, four, three, four. This is reality. I'll admit it. I'll admit it. This is the time I'm gonna be in the last one. I think we have the last one. I think we have the last one. I think we have the last one. Everything's done. So, I love you guys. I think it's the first question. I'm not sure. I think it's important for you to have action here. He said, I got you. I'm looking for 12. It says, the only thing you're doing is just a way to get a little bit. I mean, it's a lot different. I'm thinking. Translation. Which side? Right. Thank you. There we still have a few more to go through. Wait for everybody to get back in their seats. Is Bruce coming back? Mike. Okay, we're ready to reconvene. So those of you in the back, if you don't mind moving on out to the hallway, if you're still needing to talk. Okay, let's get going. All right, we're looking at MJ, SUB 24-8, Patch and Wilkes, Unit 1, Phase 2. This is a preliminary subdivision plan. This is located out off of Winchester Road is out this direction. Patch and Wilkes comes into this area here, Patch and Wilkes Drive. They're coming in, this is a preliminary subdivision to reconfiguring the lotting layouts and the streets layouts. When this had come in many, many years ago, they were using alleys for the layout. And that's been a while. So now they're wanting to get away from the alley layout and they're wanting to come into the streets. which is what they're proposing with the new developer. So you can see this will connect up into Eastland subdivision up in this area and they'll circle around and connect to Patch and Wilkes here. This is a flood plain on this end. We have townhomes over, or single family homes over here with an alley in the rear along the back of these lots here. So they have access to come in to get back into the alley for them to access their garages in the rear. But on this new development, they're going to have the garages out front, and they're not going to use the alley system. They brought in a revised plan. We are down to the first nine conditions, which are typical sign-offs. We still had discuss access easement to the rear of the new lots, which does not match the cross section on the plan Let's see if we get there. We got a little closer the Dash lines here is the first the furthest one on this side here is a building line setback And then they have another dash line here But when you look at the street cross section, it doesn't measure it out doesn't meet what the street cross-section is saying so we want to have that clarified. Discuss the length of the proposed street blocks for Patch and Wilkes Drive in excess of a thousand foot length per article 6-8 of the land subregs. When looking at this as an overall there's another access point down here first street and then they spaced it to here which meets the thousand foot but then there was questions and concerns that this length here getting over to this adjacent property is greater than a thousand foot so we had some question about that distance there as to meeting the regulations and with that I will open it to you all to see if there's any other comments or questions? Do we have any questions for staff? Okay, not applicant. Number 10 is a drafting thing. We'll show the access easement. There's also recorded easement that's bigger than the access easement which is on there. So we'll clean that up with some extra easements shown. And number 11, as we talk about the Collector Road, Patrick Wilkes Drive, we're showing development on one side of the road. South on the page there is still residentially zoned. We have opportunities to have streets on that side for the intersections. If we get to that point and we are more than 1,000 feet We can ask for a waiver for it at that time, I believe. This whole street length thing is causing me some headaches trying to get it worked out. I want to make sure that, as Tracy and I have had discussions on it, internally I'm good, that the curve doesn't have to be the right angles. Okay. All right. The new cut-through street you added, it now meets. Okay. It's along Patch and Wilkes where we're from that intersection to the edge of your property is at least 1,000 feet. It's over 1,000. Over 1,000. And at this point, we don't have an updated or an active preliminary subdivision plan for the property across the street. we looked at the old one and it seems appropriate that you would line up an intersection across the street perhaps yeah with this probably line up there and then we have typical yeah more opportunities for that internal section Your attorney is hovering. Oh, I got him hovering over there, too. You don't want to talk, Al? Brain engrossed. First off, Mr. Penn, welcome back. I can't believe you're that bored. Well, you know what? I have that effect on people, so I understand. Yeah. Go ahead. So I want to make sure that I understand that this 1,000-foot block length is applicable to collector streets as well as local streets. The subdivision regulation does not make a distinction. That's another great change. All right, and then I also want to make sure that we can have a three-legged intersection that would meet the, that you could use to meet the 1,000-foot standard. So on one side, it'd be longer. Down the center line, it'd be longer, but you'll let the three-legged intersection break up the 1,000-foot length requirement. Well, especially if there's not an opportunity to create a stub. Right, which you're playing northwest here. There's no opportunity to connect to the adjoining subdivision there, so we don't need the street to continue. You could do a cul-de-sac or something else to make there a street there, but your layout doesn't seem to promote that. Well, I can see a collector street paralleling an open space for a length well beyond 1,000 feet. and an intersection would have to be developed not for the open space but on the opposite side that'd be the three-legged intersection okay so so we can only look at what's happening with this plan right we can't make assumptions about what might happen in the future yeah okay and so And so where we are right now is we're going to look at this, we're going to meet with staff, and our options are we're going to make tweaks, change Tracy's mind, or seek a waiver for January. Okay. And so, yeah. So at this point, we would like to stick with the staff's recommendation of approval, and then we'll either move forward or we'll have a revised plan for the staff. But I think this is something we're going to be able to either work out or seek a waiver. It's kind of where we are. Okay. All right. Brandon, you said a moment ago seek a waiver, and did you say push this to January? I heard January. Yeah. If we're not able to find a tweak that will satisfy staff, we could seek a waiver of the subdivision reg on that 1,000 foot. But we've already missed the deadline for this month, so we wouldn't be able to file it until the end of the month and then be heard in January. So we'd have to we'd have to kick it out 30 days if that's where we end up. Okay All right Anybody else have questions for the applicant? Do we have any public comment Okay, well we'll bring it back to committee thanks applicants Madam Chair, I move for approval of PLN MJ-SUB 24-8, Patch and Wilkes Unit 1, Phase 2, with the attached 11 conditions. Second. Okay, it's been moved and properly seconded. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay, unanimous. All right. The next case is MJ SUB 24-9 Patch and Wilkes Unit 2 located at 1811 Winchester Road. This one is near the previous case. I believe it's up in this area. There's some land between the two. Winchester Road is down here. Frederick Douglas High School, the entrance is right here. And then there's existing commercial on this side, a little bit of existing residential down in this area. The purpose of this plan is to revise street layout and lot configurations. This preliminary subdivision plan looks different than the previous development plan on the property. There are nine standard conditions. The applicants worked through some of the previous conditions that we had. One of the revised conditions is to denote the 30-foot tree protection area along Winchester Road per the conditional zoning restrictions. And then denote the direct access on Winchester Road will be removed when alternate access is constructed in the 48-foot access easement across lot 6 and 8. And that's for this parcel down here, which has an existing structure on it that's currently accessed directly from Winchester Road. and then discuss compliance with the conditional zoning restrictions discuss the layout changes to the previous plan and need for a final development plan there is a note on the proposed plan that says there there needs to be a final development plan but I think we were I think what we discussed was the changes from the previous plan to the current is that why we Tracy that's that's kind of what that's trying to jog my memory a little bit and then discuss the proposed split zone lot this proposed line separates these two lots but the actual zone line between the zone districts goes down like this so I I think the applicant can speak to that and then discuss the inclusion of Thunderstick drive west of the roundabout on the plan and so Thunderstick comes in from the existing Thunderstick across into this proposed roundabout and then there's a stub there and so the question is about this portion of Thunderstick and the remainder that's left over between the roadway and the floodplain in this area, which will constrain that property there, what could happen with it. Any questions for staff? Okay, if not, we'll have the applicant. Before, would you flesh out a little bit more on the Dish 13? condition well the the previous plan that was approved did not have any out lots or an access easement out front and it was a shopping center sort of like what's designed for red mile in terms of kind of an entrance road with buildings around it with housing incorporated into the B1. So the change with the outlots, what's the intention there? They're not really visible from Winchester Road with the 30-foot tree protection area and a big berm. So are your businesses then facing internal to the access easement? And again, as Chris said, you've all agreed that there's going to be a final development plan for each lot and that's fine but typically on a preliminary subdivision plan we'll have some more information about your infrastructure plans like where's your stormwater basins if those are necessary um is there storm water you know in the street that lines that are going just to the floodplain how's that how's that working because mr gross you said we just want to build the streets but when you build the streets you often build the sewer and the storm sewer and those other things so what are there base other basins if there's a basin required can we get you to get to the microphone because I don't know people can hear Is there an intention to do final development plans within the next year or two, or what's your timing? Yes. I'm seeing a head shaking up and down, but we'd like to build this road. Which then will include your storm sewer and your sanitary sewer lines. Certainly it will, yeah. And we have to amend the preliminary subdivision plan that currently exists over this property because it has expired. And so that's the routine here is to simply show basically what we showed on the expired preliminary subdivision plan relative to the road, which is an expense of significance for these folks to want to undertake. And when you say the road, you mean Thunderstick and Charleston, those two public streets. Right, correct. And we accommodated traffic engineering with the inclusion of the roundabout. So I'm a little confused about the postponement recommendation. But if there are details that you need us to add to this plan to get you more comfortable relative to sanitary sewers, storm sewers and whatever else we'll be happy to do it but it's all subject to change relative to you know how the how that these specific properties develop which will be controlled by a final development plan which what which is why we asked was there you know do you have some idea of what the final development plan is going to look like so that that helps engineering know if the infrastructure is adequate right that land we don't we don't but it's a you You know, it's our responsibility to design that infrastructure for any number of potential development schemes. And that's what we do. And that gets pretty heavily scrutinized at the engineering level. Is there a reason why Thunderstick isn't continuing along the northern frontage of that large lot? No. We wanted to build the roundabout, and the development scheme from that point forward is still in the preliminary or conceptual phases. So it sounds like we're kind of getting into the details of this that probably should be discussed in the technical committee. Is that the reason for the postponement? Well, it sounds like there's a lot more that needs to be discussed. I promise you we're not trying to hide the ball here. I mean, it's just... Oh, I understand. I just think that this discussion is beyond our group. I was addressing Tracy more than you. Yeah, I think you and Tracy need to take this off. I mean, this is... We added the sanitary sewers. We added proposed easements, and we showed all the existing sanitary sewer on the site. our stormwater management in the regional area on the lot. We've got the floodplain in the back. We've got a massive floodplain to deal with. And we're going to have to cross it maybe a couple times. Very expensive. This is a large piece of property. Its location has improved tremendously over the last 10 or 15 years relative to development success or potential development success. And so it's time is now, and we know this spine road has got to be built. It's going to take 18 months to design and build it. So we're just trying to get ahead of the game a bit. So I'm in this chair asking you all, would you be able to work through coming to an agreement about the elements that this plan has to include before it rolls forward to the full commission. Is there enough time to do that, in which case I think we could advance it. If there's not enough time to do it, then we postpone it. Yes, there's time to get it worked out. This is what we're doing right now, and I apologize for taking everybody's time, is headed in that direction. But this is not the place to do that. No, no, no. I apologize for that. It was an opportunity. Okay, because even a postponement doesn't mean that, you know, I mean, if it comes to the commission earlier, then, you know, if it's ready next week, it's ready next week. You know, but I think from where I'm sitting right now, postponement seems to make sense because there's still a lot of discussion that needs to be had before. If you're uncomfortable, that's fine. But this is simply a preliminary subdivision plan to build the spine road. Okay. All right. Any other questions for the applicant at this time? All right. Thank you, applicant. Thank you. Do we have any public comment? Yes. Okay. Could you come forward, please? Yes. Good morning, I'm Jennifer Brin Gardner. I'm a resident of the Patch and Wilkes townhomes that are in that bottom left corner. And just trying to educate ourselves on process and just take a moment to ask a couple of questions so as we talk with our neighbors that we can understand how these steps are steps are being taken. I guess probably the first question I have is related down there by the townhomes and it looks like in this updated drawing they've depicted that easement that goes across Barry's property, the little dotted lines. There you go. Patchen Lake Lane is a private road. I know that may not mean the same thing to everybody, but from our residents' perspective, and we park all along the side of it as we go back over to Patchen Wilkes Drive, which was on the other development proposal. So we have concerns about access to our townhomes, and it looks like they stopped it at Barry's property line, but we just had a question around what that meant. If there's any sort of access point up there in that real fine print, it says all access points have to be depicted. We just wanted to make sure that there wasn't going to be connection to Charleston from Patchen Lake Lane. Does that make sense? I'm not sure who I'm supposed to ask that question. Okay. Okay. Come on up. We added what is recorded. So across Barry's lot is an access easement that was recorded with the development of their townhomes that talks about possible extension. We haven't shown it extending into the R3 property. we come back with the development plan or subdivision plan for the R3 property that'd be the time to address the continuation or the termination of that existing access easement. By R3 are you talking about the part over there by the firm? Yeah, yeah lot 10 I think. This R3 here? Yeah. Because we've heard rumors that they make the more townhouses. Oh yeah, anything within the R3 zone. Sure, sir. Thank you. Yep. Wait is what I'm hearing to hear more later. Okay. No, I understand. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Is that fair? Thank you. And then related to that, as we think about the commercial properties facing Winchester Road and people exiting that access road left to get back out, thinking about, you know, headlights and so forth and lighting from those businesses, we're hopeful that we will hear more about landscaping to the left of Charleston there, bordering Berry's property in terms of trees or something to shield us a bit from lighting. Particularly, I see in the conditional zoning restriction, there can be a gas station with eight pumps and so forth. So not knowing what's going to go in there, we're hopeful that there will be some landscaping considered. Does that make sense? Okay. Okay. Thank you. Down the road. Okay. I'll repeat my concerns from the last meeting about the high school students that are at Frederick Douglass. And I know I've been told it's a busing school. But if there are things in those commercial lots that they can access for food, we are very concerned about people crossing at that traffic light. And I know I talked about that at the last meeting, but I just want to reiterate. Okay. So on the other question I have is related to all that little fine print on the right that speaks of a minimum number of residential units in the B1, where they have like, I guess, retail on the bottom and apartments on the top or something like that. Just want to get a better sense of behind those commercial lots what perhaps that means. as far as is that sort of like the summit or where they have to accommodate does that make sense am I asking the question conditional zoning restrictions are 2004 plan I believe so 20 years ago the idea was a very large development here and at that time it was I don't even remember which site asked for it, but it was put in the conditions that there would be 125 residential units on second stories. So at that time we had a big box and several other structures around there. Those are still the conditional zoning restrictions that will go with this property. It's specific that the residential units need to be on a second story. So the current developers are trying to get that road built so they can have a defined shape, an access point, and they can get these lots then marketed. People can see what's on the ground. They can see what the requirements are, and that's when we come back with the final development plans. We don't know yet. Yeah, yeah. It will be anything else, anything to get built here will have to be back before you all and the neighbors on a development plan. Right. Okay. Did I get all your questions? Just a couple very quick ones. So the commercial lots that are going along Winchester Road, someone spoke earlier about you wouldn't really be able to see them necessarily with trees. Because they've already taken out a whole bunch of trees. and we have a berm in front of our units that you know it's supposed to shield us from oh the farm oh yeah oh they've taken out tons of trees all over They took? Yes. What do they do? We cleared it so we can see where the utility poles are, the lights, and we've got that area ready for the continuation of Charleston. So those commercial lots, the businesses will face the access road? So, don't know. I don't know. Okay. All right. Again, too early. There will be a lot of opinions on that. Okay. And then I guess my last question. and this is just a technicality kind of thing, but hearing the other conversation about drive-throughs and whatever that term was you used about how many cars are. Yes, yes. So we have a new Chipotle that's going in down at Sur Barton, and I know they just have like a mobile pickup, you know, so I'm assuming stacking isn't as much of an issue. Do they differentiate that in any of the regs or? Not currently. Okay, because I can see that being a backup area or whatever. Okay. That a pickup window shouldn't need the same amount of stacking for people waiting to order. So we're working on an amendment to the zoning ordinance. Thank you. I appreciate your time. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. Yes. Okay. I think we answered everything. No other public comment. Okay. All right. Let's bring it back to committee. Madam Chair, I hope that they take a lot of this up to the seventh floor and continue working on this. I'll move for a recommendation of postponement plan MJSUB 24-9, Patchen-Wilkes Unit 2 with the current 15 conditions. Okay, it's been moved and properly second. All in favor of postponement? All right. It's unanimous. Thank you. As we're moving down the agenda, we don't have any changes for the development plans that appear under section two. So no change on Red Mile Road, nothing on the Hoover Ford Philpott at this point, nothing on the Fritz Farm, but we do have a change on the Maxwell, which is item 2D. Yes, and I'll have Daniel Crum planning staff. I'll have some new renderings to show you all. I also have, from you all's distance, it can be kind of difficult to spot some of the details, changes. So, I have quite a nice... Yes. Yes. So, essentially, we have, just to orient everyone again to the site, so this is heading back downtown. So, a group of properties located on Maxwell Street between the intersections of Lexington and Stone. Once again, this was a rezoning that you all saw approximately a year ago for the establishment of a student housing development. So what you have in front of you are updated multifamily design standard renderings. I'll be going through and kind of speaking to some of the changes. But the revised plan in front of us today kind of speaks to cleaning up some of the conditions from before. So things that we were looking at previously with regard to some of the cleanup items like site statistics, open space, lighting plan, et cetera, have been addressed. So really it leaves us with a couple of aspects to discuss. The first is a requested waiver. So one of the aspects of the site, Hagerman Court, which is a one-way road that extends from High Street all the way down to Maxwell, currently sort of bisects the site. As proposed, the development is essentially rerouting it to connect with Stone Avenue here. Currently, they are proposing to make that final connection a private connection. So currently, it is a public street. So they are wanting essentially a waiver to terminate the public street at their property line and make that an access easement moving forward. Staff has not written a waiver report for that yet, but it is worth noting that all of the properties further up that are outside the scale and scope of this development would be required to be routed through this site. Typically, when we see these waivers for termination of a public street and using that access in that way, it's because this is the last piece on the development, and this is sort of the termination of a street rather than a continuation to another public road. So staff will have more information on that as we move forward into next week. But really the outstanding discussion once again is sort of on some of the changes that they've made to the site with respect to what was portrayed at the time of the zoning plan. So the inclusion of the shift away from townhomes here to having those just be the standard units, you know, kind of getting away from that front porch feel, as well as discussion on the timing and closure and consolidation. Once again, changing from a public street, getting that right-of-way abandoned, shifted to a privately maintained section here, as well as the timing of consolidation of these many lots. So there are moving pieces and puzzles that this is going to have to follow in order to be approved, all of which are sort of contingent upon that approval of that corresponding waiver. So that still remains a discussion item. And then the last piece is discussing those elevation changes. Once again, as noted kind of the last time that the committee saw this, there were changes relative to what was shown at the initial development, the zoning development plan stage to what they propose now. So in each of these, I have the first iteration of the plan followed up by the applicant's new submittal. And really, the changes really speak to kind of the extension of BRIC. So previously, going back, brick and kind of those more substantial materials were really limited in the first iteration of that final development plan to kind of the first couple of levels with other sort of almost imitation type materials being used on the upper levels. Staff also noted that there was some difference in windows, window spacing, window rhythm before. The change in the plan, and there's also a supplementary document that we can show sort of at the main hearing that details kind of the areas and the change in a little bit more comprehensive fashion. But what we are seeing is the extension of some of these materials further up, the addition of additional window spacing, additional window consideration. So the applicants can go into kind of greater deal on what these look like. But this view previously, so this was the Maxwell view going to the corner of stone. This is where the townhome units were originally slated to be located at. Once again, adding stone and brick, more substantial materials as you're moving up, adding elements like balconies. And as we go backwards again, what were blank wall faces in several areas have had additional windows added. So it seems like they are trying to address some of the comments that the committee made earlier. Once again, it's up to the Planning Commission themselves to find that these changes and what's proposed are in conformance for what the expectations that were delivered to the neighborhood. But they have once again submitted this updated plan with these updated renderings, and the applicant can go into them in further detail. So with the revisions, staff was able to get to an approval recommendation, assuming that those conditions are satisfied to the satisfaction of the planning commission. So with that, I'll be happy to answer any questions you all have. Any questions for staff? Yep. Okay. We've been here a while. I'll try to be as brief as I can. John Woodall on behalf of the applicant. This has been a lot of work between our last meeting and this one to get to what you see here. You might remember we talked at the last meeting about a KU and an easement that they wanted a long stone. And what that's resulted in was pinching the building a little bit. And so what we've done, you see the entrances being shown now. The last time, I think they'd been reduced to two, but we went back to the drawing board on that. And so let me tell you exactly all the changes that you're seeing there. And when we go to the hearing, we'll have a detailed exhibit on this. But we added two additional front stoops along the Stone Street facade. Okay, so now each stoop leads to direct access to either a unit or the corner community room. We reworked the corner elevation of Maxwell and Stone to add another vertical grouping of windows above the second floor, and we updated the color to match the previous renderings that you saw. We also adjusted the two-story window components at the community room and unit above it on the corner of Maxwell and Stone to look more vertical as it did in the previous renderings. This was a big change. We added 14 Juliet, we call it, balcony units on the Maxwell Street and Stone Avenue facades to more closely match the previous rendering. And then Ms. Worth added brick back on the vertical facades above the second floor on both Maxwell Street and Stone Avenue facades. so the point was to we wanted to be able to play these things side by side what we took through the zoning process and this and you really not be able to tell a difference and I personally can't I think the standard we have to meet is a substantial conformity I believe we've we've gotten there as to the waiver if Matt Carter's here if Matt wants to speak to that also Michael from from from Gilgit Gilbane but that's just a function of you know our the requirement we're going to have to close that street and and work with City Council to do that and then you know reopen it to make access through to stone as it's shown on our plans and have enough room for our utilities along that street but those in that so that's that's the basis for asking for it but with that we're in agreement with staffs conditions this has been a project I've been proud to work on. It's been a long, long road, but I think we're there in terms of keeping all the promises that we made. To me, that's really important. This is a comment, not a question. Yes, ma'am. I was the one who complained loudly about compatibility. Yes, ma'am. As I recall, the architect spoke last time about trying to make this building look very contemporary to appeal to students and my concern was that in doing that it was not making it or likely not to make it very appealing to the historic neighborhood and so I thank you I think this is a good a good selection of elements from the first drawing to get us to where we are today thank you All right, any other questions? Any? Okay. All right. Any public comment? Okay, well, bring it back to committee. Okay. My mistake. Yeah, I guess I would like to, the access season, I guess the concern would be that for some reason in the future we don't have quite control over it. It needs to stay there, which is why it made sense as a regular street. I get how it makes their project easier. What assurances, how does that work? Because we had an instance where an access easement for a singularly owned property, but used wholly by the public. I don't know. It's just a weird mix where it's an access easement in name, but not quite function. And, like, it gives you access, but it's effectively a public street. You're right. I mean, effectively it is. It's two-way traffic. The reason we're asking for it is we're having constraints on where we can put our utilities on the backside of the building. If we put a right-of-way on there, it's going to take away. Right now we have, between the building and the back of sidewalk, we have 15 feet. And if we put a right-of-way on there and make it public, it's going to not allow us to do, on the placement of our transformer, for example. We have to be so many feet away from the building. normally minimum 25 feet. We're not going to have that distance, but they will let us put it closer to the building if we put a retaining wall around it. Just a small, they call them blast walls. It happens a lot. It's not anything unique for this project. And so with the right-of-way in there, it's going to really squeeze down on the area we have to do that. And it's not only the electric. We're going to have water vaults. There's just a lot of utilities that we don't want necessarily to be in the front of the building where people walking down the sidewalks see it. It's going to really affect the aesthetics of the building if that's out front. So we want to hide them in the back along that alley. That's the main reason. Are those utilities not normally in the public right-of-way? No, not transformers. In the water vault box? Not like fire for fire. I mean, water lines can be in the right-of-way, but not the transformers and the water vaults for the fire suppression of the building. Is there a reason you chose access easement as opposed to just narrowing your right-of-way? Well, it doesn't meet any typical section that's standard. So that's one reason we were having issue with it. I mean, would that require, I mean, that's another waiver. It is a different waiver, right? So I think the staff's concern when first reviewing your waiver requests and Daniel can jump in was that you know an access season it has a different kind of maintenance requirement But also the connotation is it's kind of a restricted use to so The Hagerman in is a public street. It's a one-way street that is going to then end into whatever this is. And I guess from the staff's perspective, typically it's better if it continues as a public street, even if it's a narrow, because Hagerman is very narrow, even if it's a narrower cross-section for an urbanized area, that it be public. It will be built to public standards in regards. It'll have sidewalk. It'll have the pavement section that we would for a residential local street. I mean, simply it would just be the ownership. That's all it would boil down to is who owns it and who maintains it. And the applicant is willing to maintain it because we're going to be using it a lot. It also provides us access for our compactors and things like that. So it's unusual to have this much activity on a public street, we feel like. Okay. Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. All right. Any other questions regarding the waiver? Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. We're back at committee. Yeah. I don't think there's any public comment. It's pretty empty. Okay. Go ahead. Chairman, I move for approval of PLN MJDP 24 with revised staff report with 14 conditions. 15. Yep, one on the backs. Thank you, Mike. 15 conditions. Second. Just as a point of clarification, there was a staff error in the numbering there, so it actually should be... So 18 should really, is still active. 15 or 20 is still active. So it's a total of 17 conditions. Apologies. Okay, motion amended for 17. Okay, second. All in favor? Aye. Unanimous. All right. Is this the last one? Okay. We're heading out to the George West property located off of Georgetown Road. This was at our last meeting, and it was a continued discussion. This is out Georgetown Road. Here's Georgetown Road. The property is split zone, B3AR for agricultural rule, B3 up here in the front. The big question was, and the reason why we had this to continue, was our trees. Okay. So they came in and they did the trees. They showed us the trees that they're going to have to remove for this development. And so with that, they came in. We got a revised set of conditions. We're down to just the first 11 be our sign-offs and then 12 denote the lot coverage per Article 2-4. Dash 4 and 820, this is all dealing with the split B3 zone, and we just want to make sure we have clarification because the B3 lot coverage, we don't count the agricultural rural land when we're calculating the B3 lot coverage. So we just need that to make sure we have that clarified. But they do show us all the trees, so this is what we asked for. they did bring it to us which makes us feel better so so with that I will open it to you all to see if there's any other comments or questions we feel like we can move forwards on this one. All right, applicant. Well, I hope now we've addressed your comments. So anyway, I'll be glad to answer any questions. The trees that are there look like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree yard. So you're going to put Christmas lights on? Yeah. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Yep, we're ready. Madam Chair, if you're ready, I'll move for approval of Plan MJDP 24-83 George West as state property with the now revised 12 conditions. Second. All right. We moved and second. All in favor? All right. It's unanimous. Okay. Is that it? Just a couple quick updates on our end real quick. Thank you. Just to touch on the last couple of things on the agenda, we have two zoning development plans with no updates at this time. The Parker's Mill application is going to be postponing from the December hearing, and we're set to meet with the Higbee Mill application before the hearing to kind of discuss that further. But what I gave you is just send it out in an email last night, cognizant of how much time we've spent in this room already. essentially this is a zoning ordinance text amendment to allow short-term rentals within the agricultural zones. This is sort of, if you feel like you were just talking about short-term rentals, you were. Those should be reviewed later on tonight. And so once what you just approved is adopted, I will have the enviable task of reconciling these documents. But just from 10,000 feet essentially this sets up a framework to allow hosted and unhosted rentals in the agricultural zones as conditional uses staff alternative text makes a handful of changes for consistency and clarity and keeping everything consistent as you're looking at this text feel free to reach up if there's any questions but largely keeping the framework that the rural land management board has been looking at this kind of for the past year. Urban County Council took that text, passed it on. And so this is going to be set to be heard next week on the 12th as well. So kind of a condensed time frame. But if there's any questions, edits, clarity, clarification needed between now and then, feel free to reach out. But rather than go line by line, if you have any big questions, I'd be happy to answer them now. Otherwise, feel free to reach out. I've got a... Sure. It's a big question to me. probably isn't to you, but define farmstead for me. Yeah, so a farmstead, it's defined in KRS. It's also essentially it is a very specific type of bed and breakfast. So it's defined by the state, and it essentially is a subsection of when it talks about bed and breakfast uses. So that's where our services are being provided, the meals, et cetera. it just happens to take place on a farm. So it has to be a bed and breakfast. It has to serve meals. Yes, yes. That is the mechanism there. Yeah. Because we've got, and I won't go into it today, we don't want to debate it, but we've got two or three that will be nonconforming uses that have been useless for a long time. It's short-term rentals, but they don't serve food. It's a farm experience type of situation. And that will have to be a discussion item for sure. Okay. And I just want to get a staff recommendation. So you all are saying it has to be a bed and breakfast situation. Yes, it is clearly laid out and lumped together with state law. So we are just kind of those were already covered under the existing bed and breakfast language. which this was in addition by council, I think, to codify and clarify that relationship. So there's no room for not conforming on that? No. Historical perspective. I just need to know the answer there because I'm going to be asked that question. Well, we'll try to find an answer by next week, but we haven't really been able to find one in the last year. So I don't know. I'm not thinking you're going to find it. And we're on a short time frame because of the way the council initiated this. and we're dealing with that issue exactly coming up at the Board of Adjustment on Monday. So it is a complex issue. It is. Thank you. I don't mean to belabor this, but I know what's coming. So just in the bigger picture and looking at how we all work together, has the Rural Land Management Board been involved in this or had a chance to see it? Yes. So the initial language, and just for the spirit of full disclosure, so the Rural Land Management Board has been looking at this for at least the past year. Their recommendation was sort of the starting point that council's language then worked from. One of their big differences is that, to my understanding, the Rural Land Management Board did not want to include the option of unhosted short-term rentals. Council took a look at that and said, we'd like to provide a pathway, but we are going to significantly limit the ability for those to be utilized by throwing a maximum parcel size in there. So they basically said, no, well, we want to keep unhosted away from our larger, truly agricultural tracts, but these 10-acre and less size parcels, a little bit more urbanized, something like that, maybe a little bit closer in character. So they should have the pathway being able to meet everything else to request that. So that was the framework that they took, but largely much of the provisions, especially as it relates to the considerations that the Board of Adjustment is looking at, is consistent from the language that the Rural Land Management Board sort of passed on to council. And I don't want to belabor you all because you've been here so long, but just so you'll know when you see this next week, when the council talked about short-term rentals and adjusting and whatever, they pretty much punted short-term rentals in the AR to the Rural Land Management Board. And I staffed that board as well. And so they formed a committee, and they specifically gathered as much information as they could and came back with what their recommendations were directly to the Urban County Council because that's who directed them to give them something. And then the council tweaked it a little bit and initiated it to you all. So that's how it's coming to you all next week. But as you know, when they initiate a text amendment to you all, you only have a short 60 days to get it back to them. So that's why it's next week. So if we have any questions, do we call Daniel? Do we call you? You can do either. Yes, I probably just as well to send anything on to me, and if I find anything legally questionable, I default to our lovely folks at the Luldom. Mr. Crumb, you covered well first. Thank you. Thank you. A couple of questions, if I may. Sure. If I remember correctly, a week ago, two weeks ago, whenever it was, with some of the language occupancy up to 12 or occupancy greater than 12, there was also language that included bedrooms. It was one or the other or maximum off. Has that language gone away? So, once again, the tricky part is that these two ordinances, the one that you all saw and approved and the one that was used as the template for this document, are disjointed from each other. So whatever is approved ostensibly tonight, we will then kind of have to rectify. But staff generally took the position when we were reviewing this text that assuming that that was going to be passed kind of as sort of discussed. So with regards to the occupancy staffs, what you recently approved was a maximum of 10, the threshold being 10 with the two per bedroom plus two staff is recommending that that be kept the urban county council text and that was sort of initiated wanted to limit it to just a two per bedroom so there there are some small tweaks with regards to kind of that language but things like the 600 foot separation from these conditional uses those would apply in this instance as well. So there are some situations where what is being approved tonight is going to have a bearing on the short-term rental ordinance here. And then staff kind of assumed in that writing that that was going to be the case. If anything has changed between, you know, tonight, we can update our language and kind of make sure that when this gets to you next week, it is one ordinance that says everything regarding all of the short-term rentals, what is adopted so there's not any confusion on versioning or when things were approved or what number applies when but unfortunately until later on tonight that isn't possible if there is changes you you'll get it yes yes thank you okay um as far as number of possible short-term rentals on a piece of property one two uh so the yeah the the language um is is one it's it's a it's a limit of one so you can either have that as a you know if you meet the criteria that's whether it's a hosted unhosted whether it's in your house or your farm employee unit um it's it's a limited one there okay and last question i don't think i saw it when i was skimming through this the other day um this will not be allowed on pdr property yes we uh staff in consultation with law added a provision um that specifically addresses under the staff recommended language that this is not allowed on pdr and i think that that's been our the interpretation anyways but just skip steps one through four wanted to spell it up yep the only the only problem that I see and I'm saying this to the committee as well as the staff the only problem I see with this is that we are going to have I guess several situations that people gonna come down there and ask how was I labeled to do this for this many years and now all of a sudden we've written them out. And I understand the PDR part of it, but there's some – and there's not the number that people are throwing around out there. The big number that I saw took – they just did a flyover type thing, and they even included a horse park, you know, that campground, the horse park. Well, that's not apples to apples. So I don't think it's as big a problem as some people try to make it, but I do think it needs to be registered. We need to know, and it's not fair to the hotel and motel people that they don't have to pay tax on their overnight stays just like the other people. What we don't want to happen is farms start putting in houses just to rent out as an income source, and I don't know how you prevent that. Yeah, and just as a clarification, so the language does allow for farm employee dwelling units, which the ordinance allows on these large farms. You can have that as an accessory use. It's got to be linked to the agricultural use and kind of it has very specific criteria. This does allow them to have that ability to say, hey, this is a seasonal housing situation. when there's not someone here actively working the farm, we'd like to rent this out. All of that still has to meet the initial criteria. So if you don't have a farm, you still would not be able to construct that unit, and you still would have to go through the conditional use process. So we think those protections, the spacing requirement between all of that, requiring those to be hosted, I think can help prevent sort of, in lack of a better word, some of the commercialization that is the fear, I think, when we're talking about changing the character of some of these agricultural areas so that was staff staff was trying to you know considering that and was was aware of that when we looked i think you've done a good job it's just a question of sure getting the word out it needs to be done thank you all thank you and that should be it for all of staff's items so oh Oh, me. Okay, separate from that. All right. Okay, good. All right. I think they're ready to go. Can I get a motion to adjourn? So moved. Second. All right. Anybody can. And third. All right. Meeting adjourned. Thank you. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Thank you. As the snow flies On a cold and gray Chicago morning A poor little baby child is born in the ghetto And his mama cries Cause if there's one thing she don't need is another hungry mouth to feed in the ghetto. In the ghetto. People, don't you understand? Your child needs everything. He'll grow to be an angry young man someday. Take a look at you and me. Are we too blind to see? Do we simply turn our heads and look the other way? Well the world turns And a hungry little boy with a runny nose Plays in the street as the cold wind blows in the ghetto In the ghetto And his hunger burns So he starts to roam the streets at night And he learns how to steal and he learns how to fight in the ghetto Then one night in desperation the young man breaks away He buys a gun He steals a car He tries to run But he don't get far And his mama cries As a crowd gathers round an angry young man face down in the street with a gun his hand in the ghetto In the ghetto And as her young man dies In the ghetto On a cold and gray Chicago morning Another little baby child is born In the ghetto In the ghetto And his mama cries In the ghetto I hit the guitar Here you come again Just when I've begun to get myself together You walk right in the door Just like you've done before And wrap my heart round your little finger Here you come again Touch what I'm about to make it work without you You look into my eyes and lie those pretty lies And pretty soon I'm wondering how I came to doubt you All you gotta do is smile and smile And therefore all my defenses Just leave it up to you And in a little while You're messing up my mind And filling up my senses Here you come again Looking better than a body has a right to And shaking me up so That all I really know Is here you come again And here I go All you gotta do is smile and smile And therefore I'm mighty fancy I should leave it up to you I'm gonna live a while You're messing up my mind And filling up my senses Here you come again Looking better than a body has a right to And shaking me up so That all I really know Is here you come again And here I go Here I go And here I go And here I go Here you come again And here I go Here I go And here I go Everybody loves a clown, so why don't you? Everybody loves at the things that I say and do They all laugh when they see me coming But you don't laugh, you just go home running Everybody loves a clown, so why can't you? A clown has feelings too I joke around at a party when you are there If you don't laugh, you don't love, you just don't care If you wonder why this clown is crying Look a little closer inside, I'm dying It's not easy to hear in love you see When you're a clown like me I don't know how to say that I love you Cause you would smile and say, tell a joke or two Yes, I'm a clown, but I don't wanna be Why can't you see the other side of me? Guess I'll be the guy who plays the part of a clown with a broken heart. Dreaming of your love and I've known where to start. Dreaming of your love and I've known where to start. I got sent home from school one day with a shiner on my eye. Fighting was against the rules and it didn't matter why. When dad got home, I told that story just like I'd rehearsed. Then stood there on those trembling knees and waited for the worst. And he said, let me tell you a secret about a father's love. The secret that my daddy said was just between us. He said daddies don't just love their children every now and then. It's a love without end, amen. It's a love without end, amen. When I became a father in the spring of 81, There was no doubt that stubborn boy was just like my father's son. And when I thought my patience had been tested to the end, I took my daddy's secret and I passed it on to him. I said, let me tell you a secret about a father's love. A secret that my daddy said was just between us I said daddies don't just love their children every now and then It's a love without end, amen It's a love without end, amen Last night I dreamed I died and stood outside those pearly gates When suddenly I realized there must be some mistake If they know half the things I've done they'll never let me in And then somewhere from the other side I heard these words again And they said let me tell you a secret About a father's love A secret that my daddy said was just between us You see daddies don't just love their children Every now and then It's a love without end, amen It's a love without end, amen I lost her trail on a Friday night, she was gone before I got home. She'd been getting restless in that big house all along. Diving up and down these city streets for three nights in a row. And Lord, it's hard to find that girl When she gets the urge to go It's kinda like a lost and found in a border now You're asking about a diamond ring They just look at you like you've lost your mind Say they haven't seen a thing But I know she's been here lately I can still smell her perfume If she gets crazy on the phone I know she'll be coming back Her cars are waiting right outside But I don't want to think about Who's taking her for a ride And her unpredictability Is what I love about her best But I got to find her quick For she does something I'll regret It's kind of like a lost and found in a border town, asking about a diamond ring. Hey, just look at you like you've lost your mind, say they haven't seen a thing. But I know she's been here lately, I can still smell her perfume. Yeah, she gets crazy on a woman She's out there somewhere Burning up the night Somehow I got to run her down I'm running out of time It's kind of like a lost and found in a border town Asking about a diamond ring They just look at you like you've lost your mind Say they haven't seen a thing But I know she's been here lately I can still smell her perfume Yeah, she gets crazy on the full moon It's kind of like I lost the sound in a border town You're asking about a dime and drink Hey, just look at you like you've lost your mind Say they haven't seen a thing But I know she's been here living Bye. I can go where life leads me, somehow I know I'll be strong. Oh, once I can touch what my heart used to dream of long before I knew. Oh, someone more like you would make my dream come true. Yeah, if I once in my life I will let sorrow hurt me. Not like it's hurt me before For once I have something I know won't deserve me I'm not alone anymore For once I can see This is mine, you can't take it As long as I know I have love, I can make it For once in my life I have someone who needs me Oh, my God. I'm not alone anymore. Oh, once I can sing If this is right, you can't take it Oh, if I know I have love I can make it For once in my life I have someone who needs me Oh, for once in my life Yeah, somebody that needs me Who needs me No New Year's Day to celebrate No chocolate-covered candy hearts to give away No first up spring No song to sing In fact, here's just another Ordinary day No April rain No flowers bloom No wedding Saturday within the month of June But what it is, is something true Made up of these three words that I must say to you I just called to say I love you I just called to say how much I care I just called to say I love you And I mean it from the bottom of my heart No summer's high No warm July No harvest moon to light One tender August night No autumn breeze No falling leaves Not even time For birds to fly To southern skies No Libra sun No Halloween No giving thanks To all the Christmas joy you bring But what it is So awesome To fill your heart Like no three words Could ever do I just called To say I love you I just called To say how much I care about you I just call to say I love you And I mean it from the bottom of my heart I just call to say I love you I just call To say how much I care I just call To say I love you And I mean From the bottom of my heart Oh, my heart Baby! Oh, my heart Thank you. So don't ever leave I don't want to see us part The very thought of losing you means That everything would go down Losing the finger forever Just as long as you want me to be I'll be loving you forever All this love's for you and me I'll be loving you I'll be loving you. The way to you is forever. I'll be loving you. Loving you. Yeah. I've got the blessings to keep on the moon There's one for me and a million for you There's just so much that I want to say But when I look at you, all my thoughts get in the way. I'll be loving you forever, just as long as you want me to be. I'll be loving you forever All this love's for you and me I'll be loving you Thank you. This love will last forever I can see it all now I'll be loving you Loving you Loving you Yeah, it is forever I'll be loving you I'll be loving you, girl Oh, girl I'll be loving you, girl Oh, girl I'll be loving you, girl Sailing away from the crest of a wave It's like magic Oh, rolling and riding and slipping and sliding It's magic You and your sweet side You took me Higher and higher, baby It's a living thing It's a terrible thing to lose. It's a given thing. What a terrible thing to lose. Make them believe this is what you conceive from your worst day. I'm taking a dive. I'm moving in line when you look back in time to the first day. I'm taking, I'm taking. And you and your sweet desire. Don't you do it, don't you do it. Oh. Higher and higher, stay there It's a living thing It's a terrible thing to lose It's a given thing What a terrible thing to lose Nothing to die On the side On the side Hey, hey Taking a dive Cause you can't help the slide Floating downstream I'm taking a dive So let her go Don't start spoiling the show It's a bad dream I'm taking it, I'm taking it For you And I'll keep the same Don't you do it, don't you do it Higher and higher, baby It's a living thing It's a terrible thing to love It's a given thing What a terrible thing to lose It's a living thing It's a terrible thing to lose It's a giving thing I can't keep up with what's been going down I think my heart must just be slowing down Among the human beings In their designer jeans Am I the only one who hears the screams And the strangled cries of lawyers in love God sends his spaceships to America, the beautiful. They land at six o'clock and there we are, the beautiful. Eating from TV trays, tuned in to happy days. Waiting for World War III while Jesus slays To the fading calls of lawyers in love Oh, Sha-la-la-u Oh, Sha-la-la-u Oh, Sha-la-la-u Oh, Sha-la-la-u I'm out. Now we've got all this room We've even got the moon And I hear the USSR will be open soon As vacation land for lawyers in love Lawyers in love Oh, shall I love you guitar solo We'll be right back. UAC. Didn't get to bed last night. On the way to paperback was on my knee. Man, I had a dreadful fight. I'm back in the USSR. You don't know how lucky you are, boy. Back in the USSR. Been away so long, I hardly knew the place. Gee, it's good to be back home. Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case Honey, disconnect the phone I'm back in the U.S. as all You know how lucky you are, boy Back in the U.S., back in the U.S., back in the U.S. as all Well, the Julie Green girls really knock me out They leave the West behind And my strong girls make me sing and shout And Georgia's always all my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my Oh, come on! I'm back in the U.S.S.R. You don't know how lucky you are, boy Back in the USSR Well, the different green girls really knock me out They leave the west behind And most old girls make me sing and shout That Georgia's always over My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my Oh, show me round the snow, big mountains way down south Take me to your daddy's mall Let me hear your bell like it's ringing out Come and keep your comrade at work I'm back in the USSR You don't know how lucky you are, boys Back in the USSR Oh, let me tell you, honey Hey, I'm back in the USSR I saw the light, I've been baptized by the fire in your touch and the flame in your eyes. I'm born to love again, I'm a brand new man. The whole town's talking about the line I'm walking That leads right to your door Oh, how I used to roam I was a rolling stone I used to have a wild side They say a country mile wide I'd burn those beer joints down That's all changed now You turn my life around I saw the light I've been baptized By the fire in your touch And the flame in your eyes I'm born to love again I'm a brand new man I used to love them and leave them Oh, I'd brag about my freedom How no one could tie me down Then I met you Now my heart beats true Baby, you and me together Feels more like forever Than anything I've ever known We're right on track I ain't looking back Yeah, I saw the light I've been baptized by the fire in your touch and the flame in your eyes. I'm born to love again. I'm a brand new man. I saw the light Sceptized by the fire.